Hire Calling
Hire Calling
What’s Evergreen in Recruiting—And What’s Coming Next With John Ruffini
Our host, Pete Newsome, sits down with John Ruffini—VP of Professional Development at HealthTrust Workforce Solutions and author of Money Makers—to explore how recruiting is evolving and which fundamentals still hold strong.
While technology and AI have transformed the way recruiters operate, Ruffini reminds us that relationships remain at the heart of great recruiting. He states, “Our business is still about relationships, and people want to interact with other people. It’s just human nature.”
He shares his “million-dollar questions”—thoughtful, disarming prompts that turn reluctant candidates into open conversations—and contrasts this relationship-first mindset with the transactional approaches that dominate today’s landscape.
The conversation also dives into the impact of remote work, including the loss of geographic boundaries and the challenge of developing young talent. Ruffini makes a strong case for hybrid models and shares personal lessons from both wins and failures that helped shape his recruiting philosophy.
Whether you’re a veteran recruiter or just starting out, this episode offers a fresh perspective on the future of talent acquisition—and why human connection still matters most.
Additional Resources:
1. HealthTrust Workforce Solutions
2. Money Makers: Proven Ways to Increase Sales and Productivity in the World of Professional Recruiting
3. Effective Methods of Recruitment and Selection
4. Recruiting Trends for the New Year
🧠 WANT TO LEARN MORE? Be sure to subscribe and check out 4 Corner Resources at https://www.4cornerresources.com/
👋 FOLLOW PETE NEWSOME ONLINE:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petenewsome/
Blog Articles: https://www.4cornerresources.com/blog/
👋 FOLLOW JOHN RUFFINI ONLINE:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnruffini/
You're listening to the Hire Calling Podcast, your source for all things hiring, staffing and recruiting. I'm Pete Newsome, and my guest today is John Ruffini, vice President of Professional Development for Health Trust Workforce Solutions. John, how are you today, pete? I'm great. It's good to see you. It's great to see you. How long have we known each other now, john? I guess?
John Ruffini:we initially. That's gotta be coming up on eight years, that's got to be coming up on eight years I think it has.
Pete Newsome:Give or take. That's what I was thinking. John, you're a longtime staffing executive. I asked you to come on today to talk about what has changed, but what is still the same in staffing and we know that there's a lot of both. And now I should have introduced you a little better than I did, because you're also an author of a book that I have on my bookshelf behind me, that you actually wrote a book about recruiting. Tell me a little bit about that before we get going.
John Ruffini:I appreciate it and it's very timely because I'm actually updating the book as we speak. Back in 2016, I put out a book called Moneymakers and it was all about the fundamentals of recruiting and it took off very well via word of mouth, very little marketing, but a lot of firms have used it to train their new recruiters because it really does teach you. The premise behind it is there are 52 techniques in the book, one for each week of the year, so it's all about getting a technique, applying it, making it work and then slowly building on that, and it was all about the fundamentals of the business, where I think every recruiter needs to be grounded before they can grow their business. Actually, the world has changed since it came out, so I'm actually in the process of updating it and hopefully later this year there'll be a revised edition coming out.
Pete Newsome:Well, I look forward to comparing the two, because the world has changed a lot. It continues to evolve rapidly. We're going to talk about some of those changes today and that'll be interesting to see what you can leave in and what you look at and say, wow, this no longer even applies. How far have you gotten with it so far?
John Ruffini:I did a first pass. I went through the first book and I said, okay, what still works and what needs to be kicked out the door. And there was some stuff that I said, yeah, that's not really going to be applicable. And I added there was enough new stuff going on, a nice refresher. The fundamentals really haven't changed, but the way we recruit as has.
Pete Newsome:Absolutely, I think, the kickoff for what we're going to talk about today, since I jokingly had emailed you that you and I have been in recruiting longer than many recruiters have been alive.
John Ruffini:I don't know if that's a pro or a con. Sad but true.
Pete Newsome:Sad but true. So what is one thing that just is fundamental in that technology, or anything else going on in the world, just won't change.
John Ruffini:In my opinion, Pete, the thing about recruiting, regardless of what happens to influence how we recruit, our business is still about relationships and it's still grounded in relationships and I don't see that changing. So at the end of the day, it's a people business and people want to interact with other people. It's just human nature. So it's all about the relationships and building those long-term relationships with folks, both on the recruiting candidate side and on the client development side recruiting profession.
Pete Newsome:There's talk about recruiters going away, ai replacing us. Nothing could be farther from the truth, because we need people to separate all the noise that now exists between 100% 100,000.
John Ruffini:There's new products coming out, it seems, every day, and they're the greatest new thing that's going to help you be better at your business, and I think that's the key is trying to figure out which one of these tools is going to work for me, so to speak, or my firm. But you're right, it's never going to replace the recruiter. It'll augment the recruiter's performance, but it won't replace the recruiter.
Pete Newsome:I think that's a great way to phrase it and I couldn't agree more. So, with that in mind, what is a tool that, when you started recruiting, it would have sounded like science fiction to you. Then, if someone had told you back then hey, this is how we're going to be doing things, what comes to mind?
John Ruffini:If someone had told me so, one of the biggest challenges for any recruiter is mining their own ATS, right? So there's a lot of data in there, sometimes millions of records from God knows how many years back, and it's always laborious years back and it's always laborious. So if you had told me a decade ago that there could be an AI agent that would automatically have a verbal conversation with thousands of candidates in my database and pre-qualify them before I even got into the office in the morning, I would have thought you were crazy. But we have that today.
Pete Newsome:That's pretty wild. How about if someone had said that to you five years ago, like it didn't? Yeah. If they had said that to you five years ago Like it didn't? Yeah. If they'd said it to you a couple of decades ago, but even five years ago that seemed.
John Ruffini:Because the automated attendant, so to speak, has come a long way. Back five years ago, the automated attendant would be no one that I'd want to have a conversation with because it sounded robotic. Now they've got technology that flows pretty smooth and sounds like a real human, and people are receptive to it.
Pete Newsome:And it's crazy to me to or not crazy, but I think it's probably the opposite of crazy. It's probably natural to see that some companies and organizations are embracing it. Others are not. I was on the phone with an airline a couple of days ago we're booking a trip for the summer and I was trying to get past the auto attendant. I was hitting zero. I kept saying speak with a representative, but it was such dated technology it just wasn't acknowledging that it was forcing me to follow its set of prompts and it just didn't apply to what I wanted.
Pete Newsome:And as a consumer, I was so frustrated by that because I already have expectations of a better interaction and I could just tell they haven't updated their auto attendant in probably five plus years. Trust me, it did as I was banging on the phone because I was only calling because website wasn't good enough. That's really the way things are today is. As a user, we expect, if not demand, instant interaction and satisfaction from what we're trying to do, and I think tell me if you disagree. As staffing professionals, we better be paying attention to that and keeping up. If not, we're going to be left behind quickly.
John Ruffini:Absolutely. Again, you've got to evolve with the changing landscapes and the way that we recruit today is not the way we recruited five, 10 years ago. So, again, there are certain fundamentals that you're still going to employ, but how you recruit, you've got to adapt to the changing landscape and how people want to be connected with and where they want to be connected with and what mediums they want to be connected with.
Pete Newsome:What got you here won't get you there, so to speak, in your business, being part of a large organization that works with a lot of different staffing firms. I have peer groups that I'm part of. Of course, we're a little bit smaller than you guys are as an organization, but I am seeing a lot of talk and thought about it, but not as much action as I would have anticipated, given how widely available the technology is. Are you seeing something the same or different?
John Ruffini:We are, and I think that's it's a blessing and a curse being part of a very large organization. The blessing is you got a lot of resources and you've got a lot of opportunities. The curse is it takes a long time to get new technology through the red tape and approved and there's fear. I'm in the healthcare industry now, so there's a huge fear of cyber attacks and sensitive data that may be in existence that they don't want hacked. So they're very conservative, very cautious, which from a recruiting standpoint can be frustrating, because you just want to at least try this technology out to see if it's going to help and make your business better, and getting to that point takes a little bit longer than we'd like. You take the good with the bad. If you're smaller and nimble, you've got a little bit more flexibility on what you can and can't explore.
Pete Newsome:And there's pros and cons to both, I think, like you said, because sometimes when I like to chase shiny objects on occasion and that ready fire aim approach, isn't always the best right.
Pete Newsome:It keeps you on your toes, which is a good thing, and we're never going to be left behind as a result, but it's not always. Sometimes a little hit and pause button making sure you think things through, and that has its advantages too. Absolutely, Absolutely, all right. So, with that in mind, as things continue to change, what is one recruiting tactic that you believe is as tried and true as it comes, and no matter how much technology comes into play, it will still deliver consistently.
John Ruffini:The ability for a recruiter to communicate and hold a conversation is paramount, and that's as important now as it's ever been. It's interesting I was thinking back to what's a technique that I've never stopped using and it still works today, and I used to have Pete. I called these my million dollar questions. So, as a recruiter, you just want to have a conversation and the worst thing is when you call, you give your intro and you get shut down immediately and you're thinking how can I keep this person talking? Just so I can get a little bit more information, to see what I got to work with here. And I don't want to talk to you, I just simply ask. Let me ask you a question If I was aware of an opportunity that could improve your life personally, professionally and financially, would you want to hear about it?
John Ruffini:And usually the answer is yes, and that gives me the opportunity to then say tell me what that looks like in your world. So it extends the conversation. Similarly, on the business development side, if a potential client is shutting you down, you say look, when you do hire, how important is it for you to hire the best talent that the market has to offer? And again, most of the time that manager is going to say, oh, it's very important. So then you follow up and you say, okay, you're running ads, you're getting the best candidate that your ad has to offer. Might or might not be the best candidate that the market has to offer. So it allows you to continue that conversation and at least get a little more information to see if it's worth both parties exploring.
Pete Newsome:I love that. Thank you for sharing both of those, and I would say to call them million dollar questions is understated, because those who apply them are going to find a lot more revenue over time associated with the results they're going to get from asking those questions, because I think that being inquisitive, being curious genuinely, is a lost art. That's how I was taught to recruit. I suspect you were as well. You've applied it and seen the benefits from it, but it runs almost in contradiction to the transactional world that we're in. Right Quick hits Give me a yes or no. Great, that's wonderful, but this is too big of a deal what we're talking about here in terms of careers and jobs. If I am, I'm going to miss something really important and it's not going to work out very well in the end.
John Ruffini:And again to your point earlier. It's counter to our culture today. Right, everything is I want it now, I want immediate gratification, I want to recruit you, I want to place you, I want the job order. Give it to me now. And our business just doesn't work that way. And if it does, it's usually going to fail. If it goes too fast and seems too easy, there's probably a reason I love 100%, and I do agree with you that we're curious. I think curiosity is something that recruiters just have to have. There's always an additional question to ask. Don't stop at the surface level. If you get the answer to the initial question you asked, then there's probably some background information that you want to know, and the deeper you can go with that, then the better the relationship you'll have with that person that you're talking to.
Pete Newsome:Absolutely, and you will have backouts and ghosting decreased to such a significant degree. Because someone made a comment to me on a podcast a couple of weeks ago Now, it wasn't a recruiting professional, but it was someone who is in the industry as a solution provider and they said, being in recruiting. You know how it is when you talk candidates into jobs all the time and I was like, wait a minute. I didn't say anything in the moment, but you can imagine, because you and I think a lot alike I know exactly why you're laughing. That is the last thing you should do as a recruiter, right? It is not about we are not in the square peg round hole business, nor should we ever try to be. I should find out if I'm doing my job right, what the candidate wants, and then decide whether there's a potential fit. But the same thing with clients. It really does work both ways, which is why I love that you use that same question, just positioned a little bit differently, because there's equal sides of this equation.
John Ruffini:I try to keep things simple. I always say recruiting it's not rocket science. You have to work ridiculously hard at it to be successful and have a career in it. But from A to Z, if you look at what we do, it's very parallel. On both sides the recruiting side and the client side there's a lot of the same stuff that goes on. You have a different audience, but the techniques and the questions and the probing and the developing a relationship, that's all the same. It takes time to develop that and those that understand that will have longer careers.
Pete Newsome:It's so true, I love this. I know I'm sensitive to the time that I have with you, or I could keep you going all day. I do have your book and I could just ask you to describe all of it, but I won't. We'll make whoever really wants to get all your answers and secrets to buy it. But all right, so let's flip the script a little bit. What's a recruiting tactic that's existed for a long time that you would like to see buried and gone forever?
John Ruffini:This is an easy one for me. It is probably my biggest pet peeve Pete when say that three times fast, pet peeve Pete. This pet peeve Pete when say that three times fast, pet peeve Pete. How many recruiters pick up the phone, call someone and say I've got the perfect job for you. Or they call a company and they say I've got someone that'd be a perfect fit for your organization, and they don't even know the person. So I always said how can I call somebody and tell them I've got the perfect job for them when I have no idea what they want or what they do or what's interesting to them? So that's something that I wish that every recruiter would just stop doing. But on the flip side, I always say I hope they keep doing it because that makes it a lot easier for me to look different.
Pete Newsome:It's great timing that you would say this, because I was at an internal interview last week and I always give whoever I'm interviewing the chance to ask questions of me at the end.
Pete Newsome:And I said let's get it all on the table, whatever you want to know. And she said all right, pete, how would you differentiate four corner from a company that had already is working with five staffing companies to get them to want to work with you? And I said I have no idea whether they should work with us if that's all the information you're giving me. I need a whole lot more to know whether we're a good fit for them or whether they're a good fit for us, and so the first thing I need to do, I need a lot more information and then I'll decide whether we are a good fit or how much differentiation that I could offer they would even see value in, because in many cases that doesn't exist.
Pete Newsome:We know that she was so surprised by the answer. She's worked in the industry for only about a year and as well as I do and anyone listening. There's almost two types of recruiting. There's transactional and then there's companies who do it the right way, and I think it's about a 50-50 split of those, and this is obviously gross generalization. It is a lost art to some degree. To really stop and this is quickly becoming the theme of our conversation today, I guess is go deep right, seek to understand before you offer solutions and answers.
John Ruffini:There were plenty of times where I would say that and like, why should we work with you? And I was like, maybe you shouldn't. You know, let's talk. Maybe I'm not the right firm for you or maybe I'm not the right recruiter for you. So many people, when you say that, they're taken aback because they're expecting you to go right into sales mode and tell me oh, we do this with our candidates, we have this process and at the end of the day, we all do the same thing. It's just how we do it that makes us different, correct?
Pete Newsome:Correct. Like you said earlier, thank goodness not everyone applies this same approach and logic. If they did, it would be hard to differentiate yourself Today. I think I may have shared this with you when we spoke the other day.
Pete Newsome:I was on the phone recently with a prospect and they were just asking us about our process, how we do things, and I mentioned that we meet our candidates on site for interviews and we walk them in for their first day, things that I consider to be one-on-one, and they said, wow, that's such so refreshing, wow, interesting, and this is a recognizable company. You would definitely know who they are. Anyone listening would. And I thought man, is the bar really that low now where something like that is fun? What I consider to be as fundamental as being present and as well as I do as a staffing company, there's you want to be on site, you want excuses, and it seems that even that has fallen off, and I suspect COVID and being remote. This changed so many things, including some of these things that I consider to be as important as breathing and tying your shoe.
John Ruffini:Yeah, covid changed a lot of things for good, but it also changed the way we recruit. And all of a sudden now there's no geographic boundaries, so some of that high touch service that you and I were raised on working in local markets, really getting to know all the companies in your market, all the candidates in your space in your market that type of thing. I would meet every candidate in person. We got them a job. I would take them out to lunch, I would go see them at their workplace on their first week or whatever, like you said, walking them in, making sure they're getting settled All that high touch stuff when you're 100% remote and you're placing people all over the country. You got to find a way to replace that. In person you can still be high touch, but it's not exactly the same.
Pete Newsome:That's a great point. I'm glad you made that distinction, because you can't always do it, but when and where you can, you absolutely should right, Absolutely, All right. Cool, let's talk about what is one thing that from a candidate experience standpoint we hear that phrase a lot what comes to mind that recruiters can do to make candidates really feel like rock stars?
John Ruffini:This is going to seem really basic and you might laugh at me, but recruiters just need to listen Listen more than they talk.
John Ruffini:It's a very basic skill that's lost a lot because we're in such a rush to get to the finish line, ask a question and then be quiet and let them talk and ask another question and be quiet and let them talk and ask a follow-up question and make it all about them, because it is, if you treat the candidate like that and my philosophy is always if you do your job right as a recruiter, you're never going to like you said what job did you put me in?
John Ruffini:You never have to sell a candidate on a job. If you do your job right, because you're going to get to know them and then, based on what they tell you is important to them, you can then bring jobs and career opportunities to their attention that fall in line with those priorities, career opportunities to their attention that fall in line with those priorities. And by doing that, they know you listen, they know you pay attention, they know you care, because you're not wasting their time saying, yeah, I know you want this, but how about this over here? And that's where recruiters end up shooting themselves in the foot. Hone your active listening skills and it makes a huge difference on the experience.
Pete Newsome:So much wisdom there. When I started off years ago taking notes, it was hard to listen and take notes at the same time. I found and I don't know if you're a fan of some of these new AI note-taking tools or if you've used them, but for recruiters to be able to stay in the moment in that conversation and not worry about recording things, I think there's a lot of benefit. Have you been exposed to any of those note-taking tools yet?
John Ruffini:You know what? I haven't been exposed to note-taking from a recruiting standpoint. I know recruiters who have and they swear by it and you're absolutely right. That allows you to really stay in the conversation. You don't have to worry about missing something or writing something down. I've utilized internally at our organization. We utilize WebEx for communications and meetings and stuff, and WebEx now has a transcribing tool. When you record a WebEx it will also transcribe it. So I've seen that and it's invaluable. You get the whole transcript of the whole meeting in one lot and you don't have to worry about okay, maybe I missed something, because you can always go back. And I think that is one of those pieces of technology could be a real game changer for recruiters. If they've got that technology and they can stay in the conversation and really be present and not have to worry about typing or writing, then it might add even more value to the process because they can just go back and look at the notes.
Pete Newsome:Yeah, I feel like all the different apps. We use Slack internally. They have that capability. We also have Teams. We don't use it as much. I think recruiters who are willing to do that are going to see the benefits from it quickly. It's just going to enhance what we're doing. That's how I think of AI. For the most part, it's not as much of a replacement it may be if you're not using it but primarily it's an enhancement. Are there any other tools that you've seen that really jump out at you as a potential game changer?
John Ruffini:So a couple of things come to mind. One I'm a huge gosh. I love ChatGPT. It has really been a game changer with respect to personalizing communications, making them stronger for that initial outreach resume updating, job description writing holy cow. It's been really helpful for that. Now, the more you use it, the more you realize that it's all about what you feed it. So the better the prompt, the better your result. I even use Chat GPT with our recruiters. You can do a live role play within Chat GPT so you can tell the machine hey, I want you to be, in our case, a clinician. I want you to be an operating room nurse. I want you to be very short on time. Short to the point, not mince words. I want you to have this skill, that skill. I want you to let me ask no more than one question at a time. You can give it all this information and then you can try and recruit the candidate through ChatGPT and at the end it will tell you how you did. It's actually pretty cool.
Pete Newsome:Have you now you're in charge of trainings incorporated that into the way you teach?
John Ruffini:It's not a staple. As far as the bootcamp training, we put every recruiter through. But when I'm working one-on-one with recruiters I'll be like, hey, let's try something. You may not enjoy role-playing with me, we'll try role-playing with a machine. Yeah, it's something different to try. What a great idea.
Pete Newsome:It makes sense that capability exists. I haven't tried it, but I may steal that idea from you in the near future. Now, have you tried Grok, the new Grok, yet the Grok that just came out over? I think over the weekend or the past week.
John Ruffini:You know what? That's the second time I've heard that word today. I saw it, I think, on a thread on LinkedIn. Someone had a poll out there. Have you tried Grok? And I had no idea what Grok is. Okay, all right.
Pete Newsome:So you're probably not a huge Twitter user then You're probably not a huge Twitter user then I think a lot of people do. I'll just say this and leave it here for now. I have had a chat GPT paid subscription for probably two years now. I'm going to cancel it as of right now. That's how much better, rock is I no? Longer feel the need to use Now. I suspect OpenAI will come out with something else very soon. But to say I'm blown away like it's a step forward it is, would be an understatement.
John Ruffini:So this is the latest and greatest AI tool.
Pete Newsome:It is, and I've heard some technologists talking about what they did in order to build this next evolution of AI. I highly recommend it. It's actually free for a period of time. Typically, you need to have the premium X subscription. I don't know if you can pay for Grok separately, but for right now they're offering it free. I think they realize how big of an advancement it is and they want it in everyone's hands to really. Elon and Sam Maltman from OpenAI aren't exactly best buddies, but they're both very smart they are, so we all benefit from it. Right, they're going at each other spending lots of money.
John Ruffini:I am looking forward to checking that out.
Pete Newsome:All right, so let's move on to something else. Hybrid versus on-site where do you land? Where do you see that? How do you see it impacting recruiting?
John Ruffini:a couple of different ways. From a firm perspective, it's been a game changer because, as far as hiring recruiters to join your team, you no longer have geographic boundaries. It's no longer oh, you've got to be close enough so you can come into the office every day. So I know personally we used to be an in-office. Every day type of firm and COVID hit and all of a sudden we're 100% remote over the course of two weeks.
John Ruffini:But what we did during that time is we set up two different, fully staffed teams of recruiters that are 100% remote. So we took advantage of it. We said let's just go out and find the best recruiters, regardless of where they are, because now they can work anywhere and that seems to be commonplace in the model. So from an internal hiring perspective, it's been a game changer. I would also say, when recruiting, most of your companies, depending on your industry, are also open to a remote or hybrid role when they hire somebody. So that also frees up recruiters on where they can recruit from. So again, you're not just limited to a certain mile radius around your client location. Now it's opened up the geographic barriers. That are no more, because now you can recruit anywhere.
Pete Newsome:For those taking advantage of it. There's so many benefits. What about downside, though? Do you see? Is any part of that concern you, either short-term or maybe even long-term, in terms of where that takes us? I think there's some unknowns there.
John Ruffini:There are some unknowns and one downside that I think is it's very hard to build culture with a remote staff and to get engagement with a remote staff.
John Ruffini:So managing those people is more challenging and I think it's harder. For if you're just coming out of school and it's your first job and you're in a fully remote job, I think it's really hard for that person, because the best way to learn is when you're surrounded by other people who are better than you, and when you're remote you don't have that all day. You might be on meetings during the day, but then you're by yourself, and I think for folks that are trying to grow their career, it's a new challenge that they almost seek out. Now they're like nobody wants to go in the office five days a week, but I think they miss the benefit of doing that by learning from other people. In my opinion, if you're able to do hybrid, that's the best of both worlds, because you get that interaction and you also get the independence and ability to work and self-manage yourself. So I think that's going to be something that we'll continue to work through over time.
Pete Newsome:I'm with you. I'm neutral on productivity. I think there's pros and cons to both. I never would have thought being at home would be so busy at times and the people coming in and out. There's a lot more going on in my house that I would have thought being in the office every day. But I do worry about young professionals, my own kids and my employees. I think they're not going to complain right. Who doesn't want to work at home if you can? But I do worry the cons outweigh the pros for their professional and personal development. Now that makes me sound like the old guy yelling at kids to get off my lawn.
John Ruffini:Not really, because not everybody is built to work from home, and that's okay. Some people need to be in an office. Some people need to be in an environment that's going to motivate them. Some people go stir crazy if they're at home. So it's not for everybody, and that's okay too. Some people may think, oh great, I get to work from home. It takes a lot of discipline and if you've never done it before, it's going to take some getting used to Again. Hopefully, if companies are doing this, they've got some sort of mentorship set up where they're helping these people figure out. Hey, here's how you can be productive when you're working from home, when you're working remote, because it's a little bit different than being in the office.
Pete Newsome:I think we'll see a whole industry grow around how to manage, develop, brain comfort, all of the above for young people who are working at home. If you're old like me, I already have my name right Loneliness is not a part of the equation. At this point in my life, it sounds nice in a way Back to when I was starting off. There's no way I would have been able to grow and develop professionally at the same pace and that so there's a lot of aspects that I think we're learning as we go, but I've come full circle. At first I thought hybrid, oh, going back and forth, that's tough and it does preclude you from being able to recruit nationally. But as time has gone on, I've landed where you are now, which is that's ideal, right? We really do give people the benefit of not having to drive in every day because you get so much of your life back, but also be exposed to others.
John Ruffini:It's vice versa. But I want to be around my peers. I want to be around other people and have some in-person meetings and get that interaction. You experience and learn different things in person in a different way than you do when you're working remote. So I agree with you, I think it's a nice mix to have.
Pete Newsome:The hybrid is like the perfect setup. Well, and for someone like you, I would suspect, if you're writing, you have to get into that deep work mode where you are uninterrupted, which is hard to do if you're in the office, but a big piece of your job, of course, is interacting with people, so it sounds like that is the best of both worlds, literally, for you in your situation.
John Ruffini:I tell you, all the training that we do for the most part probably 90% of it now is virtual virtual classrooms. From a speaker trainer perspective, I miss the live classroom. It's just, it's different. So again, we've had to adapt, my team had to adapt on okay, how can we effectively engage with folks in a virtual classroom? And when you're live with them it's easier. I miss that. I like the live audience. But again, we talk about adapting to changing landscapes and that's the situation that we're in. We embrace it and move forward.
Pete Newsome:As a speaker, a trainer or a professional salesperson, which is what I would call myself, even though it's not what I've done for quite a few years or even a recruiter, if you can't read the room, that's incredibly difficult to know how your message is landing. It's body language. It counts a lot.
John Ruffini:Someone once was talking to me about reading a room on a virtual meeting and my response was it'd be a lot easier to room with people who turn their cameras on.
Pete Newsome:Yes, we drew that light in the sand early on with COVID. Everybody had cameras on.
John Ruffini:Smart, smart All right.
Pete Newsome:So a couple more questions, John, before I let you go. Give me a juicy story. Give me something that was either an epic win or a fail. That is just a story. I know you have a gazillion of them that really it would resonate with a lot of people.
John Ruffini:It made a lasting impact in me and that was I'll try and condense this, because I'm Italian, I tend to be long-winded it taught me the value of follow-up communication. So it was pretty early in my career and I worked at 360 desks. So I recruited candidates, I brought in clients, we did the whole thing and every once in a while you had one of your clients hire one of your candidates and you got the whole deal. So that was 100% commission. So you're real excited.
John Ruffini:This was the first one of those deals that I ever booked and the guy accepted the job, gave his notice, he assured me he had the counteroffer discussion, he was not going to take a counteroffer. Everything was great. I was partying, I was writing my numbers up on the whiteboard in the office, spending that money before it was even in my pocket. And on the day he was supposed to start, pete, my client, called me and said are you aware he's not showing up today? And I said no. They said yeah, he called this morning, he took a counteroffer, he's staying where he is.
John Ruffini:So, of course, as a recruiter, who do you blame the candidate for not telling? But I always tell recruiters no, that's on you, that's on me in a case that was on me because during his notice period I had not stayed in touch with him. Had I been in touch with him I would have been able to see it coming and at least mitigated it with the client. As it turned out, I lost the candidate, I lost the client relationship because I failed miserably. But rest assured, from that point on I called my candidates multiple times during the interview. I had them call me after they resigned. I had them call me their last day, because this counteroffer occurred at 4.30 on the Friday of the last day of his notice and I called them on Sunday night before their start date. Taught me a very valuable lesson. That one stung a lot.
Pete Newsome:But imagine how much good it did for you, as I'm sure you've thought about many times over the years and have shared with others how many successes happened as a result of that for you and everyone who's you've ever helped along the way.
John Ruffini:That's how we learn right. We're going to fall on our face during the course of our lives many times, and the key is when you fall on your face, can you realize why you fell on your face and try not to do it again. And that did. It taught me a very valuable lesson.
Pete Newsome:Similarly, if it makes you feel better. My first place met with Four Corner Resources. I was at home in my little home office that I the business was about a month old. I thought I placed someone who was a direct hire and I went to check my computer this before I went out to meet him on his first day and there was an email he backed out my first placement and I still showed up with my suit on to the client and told them in person because, again, excuse to be there and follow my sword. I looked back, very similar to your story, and there were red flags that I missed and I've told that story to every recruiter we've ever hired since then. It made me so much better as a result. As painful as it was in the moment, it's soul crushing.
John Ruffini:I'm putting myself in your shoes right now, opening that email, and I can just feel your stomach.
Pete Newsome:I just oh, and I feel it, I like it was yesterday, because those things you don't forget those. Oh, but to your point, and it is such an important point every day since I've been better as a result and I wouldn't trade that experience now for anything, and I'm thankful it happened. Because you've seen like I have, I'm sure, one of the worst things. I think and it's going to sound a little pessimistic that when new recruiters have a positive, they have wins early and they think the business is easier than it is.
John Ruffini:I've seen that turn out poorly because that's almost a detriment when someone gets off to a really rocket start Because you know something's going to happen.
Pete Newsome:You have to have that bad one, right. You just do to learn, and I have so many stories, as I'm sure you do, over the years, of my recruiters putting their faith in someone where all the red flags were there. I would say you've got to learn eventually, right?
Pete Newsome:When all the red flags were there, I would say you've got to learn eventually, right, when all the butts come out, excuses. Thank you for sharing that story. It makes me feel because if it happened to you, it can certainly happen to anyone, so you ready for a quick lightning round before we go. Sure, sure, all right. So what is one skill every recruiter needs in 2025?
John Ruffini:Communication.
Pete Newsome:Absolutely Biggest candidate red flag you've ever seen.
John Ruffini:Lack of communication.
Pete Newsome:Most absurd excuse a candidate's ever given for ghosting.
John Ruffini:This is interesting. I don't have an answer for this, pete, because whenever a candidate did ghost me, I walked away. So I never really they weren't with my time. So if I couldn't get in touch with them, like tried them once, tried them twice and they were ghosting me, I just moved on. So I don't have a good answer for that one.
Pete Newsome:Okay, I have a few they got caught with. Yeah, social media is a funny thing.
John Ruffini:One word that recruiters overuse I'll give you two the word fit and the word match.
Pete Newsome:Can't stand them.
John Ruffini:All of our recruiters. Just take them out of your vocabulary whenever you're talking to the outside world, because they're very mechanical and we don't place widgets, we place people.
Pete Newsome:Perfect, I love it All. Right, Last one phone call, text or email to make candidate contact initially.
John Ruffini:All three. Yeah, you don't know how someone's going to respond if you don't know them. So if you have a phone number, an email and a text, I say, try all three and see which one works. In today's world, most of your initial outreach is going to be digital in some fashion, so it's probably going to be text or email, but eventually, as you and I both know, that has to progress to a telephone conversation so you can start building the relationship.
Pete Newsome:Love it, John. Thank you so much for today. This has been fun.
John Ruffini:I'm so glad you did.
Pete Newsome:I don't want to say you're the perfect guest, but-.
John Ruffini:No, far from that.
Pete Newsome:Yeah, I'm pretty close to it. So thank you, this has been a lot of fun. If anyone wants to buy your book and I highly recommend it it just says what needs to be said. It is so tried and true, the philosophy that you have, the approach that you take. I really do look forward to the update. How can we get it, other than connect with you on LinkedIn or looking on Amazon? Any other way we can access it.
John Ruffini:Amazon's the easiest way. They're the big kahuna. If you look up Moneymakers by John Ruffini, you'll find it out there, and I'll do a shameless plug You'll also find another one out there. It's called A Quest for Alex, and that was a nonfiction book that I released last year.
Pete Newsome:We will put those links in our show notes then, for sure. I appreciate it, john. Thank you so much. Have a great rest of the day, pete. Thank you.