Hire Calling
Hire Calling
From Good to Great: Transforming Your Hiring Approach With Vicky Brown
The hiring landscape is shifting—are you keeping up? In this episode, Vicky Brown, CEO of Idomeneo, shares expert insights on navigating the challenges of today’s job market, from the remote vs. in-office debate to finding and retaining top talent.
We’ll explore how businesses can rethink recruitment, treating it like marketing to attract the right candidates. Vicky breaks down the importance of clear career paths, smart hiring strategies, and the role of compliance in building strong teams. Plus, we discuss the impact of AI in hiring—when to embrace it and why human oversight still matters.
To wrap things up, Vicky shares helpful tips on streamlining your hiring process. Whether you’re a recruiter, HR leader, or business owner, this episode is packed with practical takeaways to elevate your hiring approach. Tune in now!
Additional Resources:
1. Idomeneo
2. Effective Methods of Recruitment and Selection for Hiring Top Talent
3. How Is Artificial Intelligence Changing the Recruiting Process?
4. Can You Trust AI to Handle Recruitment?
5. How to Use Video as an Innovative Recruitment Strategy
🧠 WANT TO LEARN MORE? Be sure to subscribe and check out 4 Corner Resources at https://www.4cornerresources.com/
👋 FOLLOW PETE NEWSOME ONLINE:
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petenewsome/
Blog Articles: https://www.4cornerresources.com/blog/
👋 FOLLOW VICKY BROWN ONLINE:
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vicky-brown-4160061/
You're listening to the Hire Calling Podcast, your source for all things hiring, staffing and recruiting. My guest today is Vicky Brown, ceo of Idomeneo, the HR consultancy she founded in 2001. I asked Vicky to join me today to offer insight into how companies can improve their approach to hiring, and she absolutely delivered. I found her perspective to be equally entertaining and educational, and I think you will too. So let's get right to it, vicky. What exactly does Idomeneo do?
Vicky Brown:We have two major pillars. We've got the HR outsourced services and that's outsourced and consulting. So we are the HR department for our clients basically, and if they have HR talent on staff then we can support that talent. If you have one person, they can spend all of their time handling employee relations issues. So we come underneath them, we support them with the compliance piece and payroll and benefits and all that administrative, all the transaction work, or we can do the whole thing.
Vicky Brown:So that's one side of the business. The other side of the business really is around education and content. So we have a robust Domino University that is for the employees of our clients and so we do a bunch of things on that platform, like manager training 101 and anti-harassment training and now violence prevention in the workplace. That's a new requirement in California, Unfortunately. Yes, it is necessary, I deal with that. So leadership education as well as nuts and bolts of what's a new hire package and how do you terminate someone, how do you write up someone and what do you do when you start payroll, All of those kinds of things. So we have education on that side.
Pete Newsome:For new owners so important and necessary. When I started my company now over 19 years ago, I quickly realized that there was no roadmap. It's like having a baby right To your point.
Vicky Brown:Sarah, please, you'll figure it out as you go along.
Pete Newsome:You figure it out as you go and that's really dangerous. Far from ideal, but you really do have to be resourceful if you don't have an expert to rely on. So everything you just described, I can speak from firsthand experience and say how necessary it really is, because you don't want to find out after the fact that you got part of that wrong and I know in my early years it was just a matter of luck. I didn't have to learn some of those lessons the hard way, because there's no doubt that we were not. If anyone from the government's listening were asked that the statute would be taken into account.
Pete Newsome:That's no joke. We were not in compliance with everything we needed to be. It wasn't because we didn't want to be, we didn't know any better. So I'm sure you run into that daily.
Vicky Brown:We absolutely do, and my love is supporting small businesses and new businesses, and they can't. They're not at the point where they're going to hire a domino to be their HR department. They're. You know, that's not what the where the budget is, and so we really wanted to put something together that was a subscription model and a community and an education platform that allowed them to get the answers that they need without spending a ton of money, so that they can avoid particularly some of those early low-hanging fruit mistakes that are so common you have someone misclassified or you don't run payroll as often as you should, all sorts of things. So we really want to be there to be a resource.
Pete Newsome:I could talk to you for hours about that aspect of the business, but I did promise that we were going to focus on hiring today, so let's just start at a macro level. What the how would you describe the state of the job market right now? From what you're seeing, you're on the West Coast, I'm on the East Coast and we recruit nationally, but most of our businesses are on this part of the country. Most we recruit nationally, but most of our businesses are on this part of the country.
Vicky Brown:So how would you describe the market we are? We too handle clients nationwide. Actually, our book covers everywhere, but it's really it's in flux. That's basically how I'm going to describe it. It's interesting. I actually just heard this morning that the unemployment rate had ticked up just a little bit. This morning that the unemployment rate had ticked up just a little bit. And so it's interesting because employers are really looking for good, qualified people and sometimes feeling that they can't find them and that is a universal truth. Actually, as long as I've been in business, that's been the case, but particularly now, because they feel that they're not finding the kind of quality that's willing to come in and do the work that they need done. Then you layer on top of that, we are betwixt, and between the whole work from home.
Vicky Brown:So, we've got work from home, we've got hybrid, we've got mandates to return to the office. That's all shaking out and you know that's going to be in flux for a while, because the response from the employee base hasn't really fully materialized yet. I think there's more to come and the response from employers hasn't fully materialized yet, because I think there's more to come on that front as well. I think employers are beginning to be more vocal about the value of synergy I hate to use that word, it's so overused but the collaboration that happens, the interstitial stuff that happens when you're all in one space together and employees are like but I'm so much more productive when I'm not interrupted a thousand times and I don't have to travel to work every day and it's less expensive for me, which means maybe I won't be asking for a raise quite so soon and all sorts of things. So there's a lot that still is yet to shake out.
Vicky Brown:But one universal truth is that finding the right person for the position that you have for your team is still a specialty. It's not common, it's very. What happens is someone leaves or you decide to expand and then you're in a rush and you just want to do. You need to do everything as quickly as possible. So you throw up job posting. You get a thousand resumes.
Vicky Brown:You have no idea what to do with all of that and you just start flying through them and anything that looks remotely familiar you glom onto, or you're smart and you engage a professional that can take care of that side for you, the business that you're in, take care of that side for you, and then give you a few highly qualified candidates and then what typically happens is you start looking at the budget and thinking I can't quite pay them that much. I want to pay them this much. So there is a lot that goes into it. But so, to answer your question, the market is in flux. It continues to be in flux. Employees are looking for great places to land that they have some interest in giving back to the world that I'm in and I can establish relationships and also have a work-life balance. That is markedly different from the story back when I started. We'll just say that.
Pete Newsome:Yeah, I don't think either. One of us heard the phrase work-life balance for the first probably 20 years of our professional careers.
Vicky Brown:Exactly. It was a system of I was hazed when I started here. I'm going to haze you now. That's basically what was going on. You worked long hours, you did whatever. You did whatever you needed to do to get the job done. You hoped you were recognized. Every once in a while you would then step forward and ask for recognition or promotion or raise or something like that. Now I want to be clear. I'm not saying that was right, I'm just saying that's what existed. And so I think, as my personal feeling is, there is a balance between those two worlds that world and the far, far world that can exist now. There's a balance between those two things, and that is the sweet spot, because we're all here for the same thing we want the business to be successful, we want the people in the business to be successful. That's when we all win. So it's definitely a balancing act.
Pete Newsome:Yeah, a lot has changed. Needless to say, it continues to evolve and change, but I struggle with that. I'm old school when it comes to hard work, right, put your head down for some number of years before you expect things. And today's younger generations struggle with that. They have a different perspective. I think employers and employees both have a big challenge to figure out where that balance is, which I think is what you're describing. And I have to ask, since we're recording, in the middle of January, we've seen a lot of announcements coming with the new presidential administration in place, specifically with Doge, whatever that is ultimately going to be and enforcing federal employees to go back to the office. Now we both probably have opinions on that, but what do you think that's going to mean? How effective is that? We don't have a crystal ball, but what's your take on what happens in the near term with those very significant changes?
Vicky Brown:Yeah, I think it's not just there. I think JP Morgan has a mandate, Amazon has a mandate now. So a number of companies have a mandate. And, to be absolutely transparent, I was the old dog. I was like nope, we're working in the office, we're a small, tight team and we're going to get it done together. Covid came around and we all went home 24-7. And then, when things started opening up again, I had a conversation with my senior leadership team and we were discussing it and we settled on a hybrid environment and now it's as hybrid as I can handle, meaning Fridays.
Vicky Brown:Everybody works from home on Fridays and the rest of the time they're in here, and that has been a happy medium for us. So I think that the result of the return to work mandates are going to be that definitely some people are going to leave, and there's a lot of kind of chatter about whether that was ultimately the design. I don't know, that's true, but certainly some people will leave. I think that the entire marketplace is changing a little bit. So I think the work from home, jobs that used to be much more plentiful I think there will people will find that there are fewer of them available not that they'll go away, but there will. You'll definitely be competing for them, them available, not that they'll go away, but you'll definitely be competing for them and the individuals, the leadership that has mandated a full return to the workplace. They'll do that for a while and see how it works and if it really starts impacting their business in a negative way, they'll have some level of flexibility in there to bring in.
Vicky Brown:If you have a superstar you want to bring in and you really need them to head that division and they really will only work in the office four days a week, then you need to figure out where that line is. So there'll be some. The water will flow, I should say, depending on circumstances. But so we're definitely we're nowhere near what it's ultimately going to look like and it's going to be some combination, some meeting of the minds ultimately. And we're definitely we're nowhere near what it's ultimately going to look like and it's going to be some combination, some meeting of the minds ultimately, and we're definitely not there yet. But I think it's not going to be a completely work from home environment. I think that's probably not going to be. I don't think either side's going to win the day.
Pete Newsome:To tell you the truth, no, and so much of it comes down to supply and demand, which is how I translate what you're saying, which I agree with 100% where we're not all LeBron James, and if you are, you have a lot of flexibility in what you can dictate. But you also have to be pragmatic about where you are in the supply and demand situation and demand situation, and if it's not in your favor and I think that's probably what a lot of employees are starting to- realize right now.
Pete Newsome:We've been looking for remote only jobs. It's great if you can find it, if that's what you want to do, but I've seen that shift and I think we'll continue to see it. The momentum is heading in the other way for now, and it sounds like we're on the same page with that. What we're experiencing.
Vicky Brown:It does, and it's unfortunate for those who have set up a homestead in a completely different state because they were like I'm just going to be remote 100% of the time. I have some questions as to whether or not that was a choice that was really well considered, because there are expenses on the employer for that happening. You know, you're all of a sudden you're an employer in a different state now, so there are implications certainly there.
Pete Newsome:So we'll see how it goes for the next few years. We will see, and I made a prediction on a couple of different shows earlier in December, and my prediction was we're going to see a lot more of those mandates this year and it sounds like it's happening, so we will adjust right. Fortunately, you and I don't have to make those decisions other than for our own companies, but we need to pay close attention to what's happening, as anyone who's listening now does. So when it comes to hiring, we know that it's a challenge. There's always new challenges coming at us, but we want to help solve those as best we can, and so you have some ideas on that. I know I'm eager to talk about those, so I'll let you start. What are some of the things that companies can do to improve hiring?
Vicky Brown:You know it all starts with knowing what your needs are. I think I know I certainly have in my career just gone blindly into I need a body. I know we have lots of work to do. I need another person to help do it. Without true crystal clarity around, what are the needs that we have? Is that just a carve out for that particular job or are there some other functions that other people are doing that maybe needs to be? Maybe it makes sense to sit in that particular chair in addition to other responsibilities, to really stop and think it all boils down to.
Vicky Brown:I mentioned before about just being in a rush to get someone in it. Really, you ultimately save time if you slow down to go fast. So you slow down. You really think about what the needs are in your organization across the entire organization. Don't just focus in on that one job because, as I said, particularly for small business, because we grow organically, something needs to happen and we figure out how to get it done. It may not make sense for that job just to have those responsibilities that you're thinking about right now. Maybe there's a piece of marketing that belongs in that job and has simply been sitting with someone else because you didn't have any alternative. So you really have to think about your entire organization, what you really are trying to accomplish, and then what's the best way to accomplish that. Then you have to be crystal clear about what the skills and qualities are that you need in that person. What will make them successful?
Vicky Brown:And we were talking earlier about the generational differences. And one of the things that I have found really helps my clients is when someone comes in and you're afraid that my contemporaries say this all the time Someone just started six months ago and they're walking and they want a promotion already and they want some of. That is a lack of knowing. It's really helpful to be crystal clear about what you think the career, what the possible career path is, what's expected at each particular stage. If you're not going to promote anybody for three years, say so. If that's your policy, say so. Be clear. When we get into challenges, it's because it's a communication and understanding challenge. Their expectations are one thing. Because it's a communication and understanding challenge, their expectations are one thing. Various reasons. You haven't been clear about what your expectations are, either because you haven't been clear with yourself about what they are, or you don't want to have that conversation because maybe it'll make them upset and maybe you'll lose this person that you think is really terrific for the job.
Pete Newsome:I'm sorry, but yeah. Which thinking is, though? More often, Do you think it's just lack of foresight and stop thinking about it, or is it avoidance? I'm curious If someone comes in as.
Vicky Brown:So in my world, someone comes in as an associate HR business partner, so the HR business partners are basically the HR reps or the directors for the clients that we work. So someone comes in as an associate business partner and they want to know how do I get to be a director? We finally and we're an HR company we should do this better, but we finally sat down and laid out exactly what kind of education, skills, abilities you needed to prove to move from associate to senior associate, and then what you need for junior business partner, and then what you need for business partner and what you need for senior business partner. So all of that is clear now and we make that readily available to people. And so it's that clarity.
Vicky Brown:And it takes, you know, some time and some thought to put those kinds of things together, and we just hadn't done it for a really long time. So I think it's just a matter of taking the time to really say and then, when you think about doing that for different departments in your organization, that's a chunk of time. You don't have to do it yourself. Just because you're the leader doesn't mean you have to do everything. Get help from your senior management team or the managers in your company. But definitely put that together, because once you have clarity, once people are clear about that, then you can have the discussions around whether or not they're actually meeting those qualifications. But when you just say, oh, you're not quite there yet, I want to see a little, I want to see improved judgment, that doesn't that means something completely different to them than it does to you.
Pete Newsome:Yes, so clarity and specificity with things that can be measured and tracked right.
Vicky Brown:Absolutely, absolutely.
Pete Newsome:Absolutely. You said it's an investment of time and it is a significant one, but not when you compare it to having to replace that person or replace, replace multiple people, which is invariably what's going to happen with greater frequency, I think. Having being able to make that decision when you're not in the moment, I think that's where that's the hard part right, where, when someone leaves, it's easy to say we should have done this right, but to do it when you're not in that because but that's not the moment you're going to do it either it goes.
Vicky Brown:It's the old adage of go for the loan when you don't need the money. You really have to. You really have to carve out the time, make it part of your goals as the leader of the organization to really sit down and put that together. Or sit with your team and put that together, because then if someone leaves or you have a new position come up, you have a roadmap. Then you're not scrambling, then you're not trying to just create something out of a blank page and that will be the roadmap that you need Now you know what qualities and qualifications you're looking for. Now you can start talking about a job posting that makes sense, a job description that makes sense.
Vicky Brown:And I tell people all the time recruiting is a marketing activity and if you think it's not, then you're not having, you're not getting the right people. You are selling your business. Just like you sell your business to your clients, sell your services to your clients, you're selling your business, your environment, your culture, your opportunity to those top candidates. Top candidates have a lot of choices, so you need to do a little bit of selling and your posting. If you're an unusual company, you shouldn't have a usual posting. Give them a day in the life. Let them know what it's actually. Do they start? Will they start out most of their days working solo and working on research projects and then, toward the end of the day, is more collaborative, or maybe their weeks are more fluid. Whatever it is, make sure you're clear about that.
Vicky Brown:Have employee testimonials. I love to call them testimonials. Employees are saying this is why I work here, and not something that's jargony. Oh, I got to improve my synergies. They don't want that. Real reasons around why they enjoy working there. And so you need to do that. And I always tell people use video. I know that that may just be a bias of mine because we use video, but I tell them to use video because there is nothing like having a link in a job description to a video of the potential manager talking about what the company is or what the department is or what they're looking for. That speaks volumes. You want people to self-select out. You don't want a thousand resumes.
Vicky Brown:You want a hundred really fantastic resumes.
Pete Newsome:I do and I love that you're an HR professional suggesting non-traditional job descriptions because the traditional one?
Pete Newsome:I apologize, but I make fun of HR all the time by saying you don't want the typical HR approved job description that says you have to be able to lift 50 pounds right when you're a software developer. It's wonderful, but as someone who earned a living figuring out what a hiring manager is looking for and then producing that individual with as few resumes as possible, I never wanted to recruit based on what's on a job description, because they're unreliable and inaccurate. They just very rarely represent the actual hiring need. And what you're describing, if I'm interpreting it correctly, is make a job description that tells the actual story of what life is like, who's needed for the role, and that takes some paying attention to on the candidate side. But we should expect, we should require that, because we've made it my opinion. This again, I start to date myself with these hang statements, but we make it too easy to apply to jobs and it shouldn't be, that way, there should be some effort on both sides that's in place, that we really lack today, more often than not.
Vicky Brown:I absolutely agree. I think that, again because we're in a hurry and we have a need, a pressing need, that we just skip vital steps, and that's why and that will always be the case when you're in a rush, so that's why it really does take measured thought, a measured thought process. So you are even if you're completely staffed right now and you're happy as a bug in a rug. Everything is going great and you don't need anyone. That is the perfect time to pull together the career pathing piece, or exactly what the job entails. And, again, if you are doing really well and you have great people, get them to help you with it. They are the walking talking version of success for that job. Let them have input. It's just so important to get it done, though, because, again, when you do it at the last minute, you don't do it basically.
Pete Newsome:No, and that's not practical too. It's understandable, but it's not going to solve your problem either. And the video I just absolutely love the video idea because that is you want to hear from the horse, right? What better way than to have, there is no better way than to have the hiring manager just talk right Now. From an HR perspective, are you willing to let the person talk with no restrictions, no barriers?
Vicky Brown:Well, I love it when HR is behind the camera, but I'm just keeping an eye on things. But they can talk about. They don't have to do a full interview. I'm talking about because you don't want candidates to have to sit and go through a 15 minute video, but I'm talking about just a couple of minutes saying hi, this is who I am and this is what I, this is what my team is like and this is what I love about it.
Pete Newsome:Love it, I love it. And how about this is? I don't know if anyone's doing this today, but how about being requiring candidates to watch that video prior to applying? Or they don't get the link until they watch the video. Maybe it's only a minute long, but, boy, you can learn a lot in that minute and it would really. You said self-select out and that's something that necessarily, because of whether they're actually fully qualified for the role, I don't mind getting applications for candidates who are close. It's the one who've been encouraged by a lot of people out there who encourage us. I'm sure you've seen like I have applied for everything. You never know. Now you do know.
Vicky Brown:Exactly, Exactly. And then people get upset because they're like I was ghosted. I sent in a resume and I never heard anything back, because that hiring professional is getting, I swear, 800 resumes and it's because people are applying for absolutely everything. Now I understand. I have been on the other side of things. I have been in the role where I'm looking for a job and you want to make sure you're covering your bases. I understand that. But if you are a little more specific around what that job can offer you, if you are a little more discerning around, you know what. This just does not sound like a fit to me at all. Then you save a little mental brain power for yourself, as well as getting wrapped up in oh, I'm not hearing back from anybody. It's clearly not a fit, Right? It's important to. I think it's important for, on the hiring side, to be very specific about what you're looking for and on the side where you're looking for a job, the job seeker I think you need to be specific as well.
Pete Newsome:I couldn't agree more, and I encourage kids to apply to fewer jobs and then go all in on those two extra things beyond sending your application.
Pete Newsome:And I do have to clarify. I always say anytime anyone mentions ghosting if I've never engaged with you at all, I'm not ghosting you. So I've got on social media oh, they sent in a thousand applications. They ghosted me. No, they never. No, they never wanted to engage with you in the first place. And I don't think and you know this because you see both sides of it, but I tend to defend the recruiters pretty aggressively with this Recruiters aren't obligated to respond to everyone who applies if they're not even close, if they didn't read the job description, and it's clear that doesn't happen. It's just not practical. Recruiters need to spend the time, especially a team like mine, a third-party recruiter working on behalf of our clients. Our time has to be very well spent. It can't be spent with candidates who didn't even bother to read the job description. So I doubt. On the other hand, I think courtesy professional courtesy is always important. So I want to caveat it with that. But I like to joke about ghosting a little bit Again back in my day.
Vicky Brown:The alternative and the volume was much lower, but the alternative was yeah, you'd be working with some giant platform and it would just shoot back a note. Thank you very much for your submission. Okay, now you've heard from us. No, that means nothing.
Pete Newsome:Feel better. Of course you do. Its technology has both been a wonderful aid in the recruiting process, but it's also been a big detriment to efficiency, which is the opposite of what it should be. But I used to look for resumes in the mail.
Pete Newsome:I'd get excited when the mail came, so I don't want to go back to that, but the one-click apply, I think, has been net negative for both sides of the recruiting process. So I love your idea and I'm going to steal it and try to get some clients to implement it with the video. I think it's a great idea.
Vicky Brown:Excellent, Thank you, Thank you. Yeah, I think that it's important to again a phrase I'm loathe to use, but to think outside the box. It's important to stand out. You want standout candidates, then you should show that you're a standout organization.
Pete Newsome:I love it. Anything else, Vicky, that comes to mind? We're talking about neat tips that may improve hiring. Or is that the big? You've given some gold, no question about it. But while I'm happy, is there anything else you'd like?
Vicky Brown:The other thing I would say really is and I can say this because I am offender number one I'm so lucky that I have a great staffing director. She's taught me a lot. But prepare for your interview. Oh, I have an interview at three. Okay, I'm going to finish up this report at two and at 2.30, I'm going to grab some lunch really quickly and, okay, I'll be ready to do the interview at three. No, you won't.
Vicky Brown:You need to sit. You need to look at the resume. You need to look at whatever materials they've sent in. You need to figure out what is not in the resume that you need to know about what's piquing your interest so you can dig a little bit deeper there. You need to understand what kind of conversation you're going to have with this person. Don't just wing it. And I've done that and I'm very good at it, but it's a very bad thing to do. I will tell. I know there are plenty of business owners sitting out there going, but I can do it because I'm really good at it. No, I understand you're really good at it, but first of all, the candidate can tell and it's disrespectful because you want them.
Vicky Brown:When the candidate walks in my office or appears on my Zoom, or whatever the case may be, and they ask me questions that are clearly demonstrating that they have done zero research on the company, they know nothing about the company. They know nothing about me. I feel like I'm in the middle of Devil Wears Prada, so you don't know me, you don't know Runway.
Vicky Brown:It's like they have no idea. It is so easy to get that information, to do that research. If they haven't done that's disrespectful to the situation that we're in right now. You're saying you want to work at my company to help us grow and succeed. I'm saying I want to invest in you to help you in your career. That is, that needs to be a respectful process. And if you haven't even taken the time to figure out who we are and what we do with all of the information that we have available out there on the internet, then you're being disrespectful. And if I haven't taken the time to read through your resume, understand what your history has been and ask you questions that make sense, that really will help move our process of getting to know one another along, I'm being disrespectful to you. So plan.
Pete Newsome:That professionalism on both sides should be given. It too often is not and we see not to. I continue to, I think, blame LinkedIn for a lot of the current challenges. By stories Candidate showed up 15 minutes late and I gave them a break because of X, y, z. That's not real. No, no one's going to give the candidate a break for that. You're being judged Right by your early actions and because you have no history and we all focus on the candidates with that. So I joke about the LinkedIn posts. I'm sure you see them. They're crazy and they're doing everyone a disservice, but they get a lot of likes right Because it conforms to the least common denominator and we all want that.
Pete Newsome:But those candidates are a terrible disservice. But we also need to focus, as you're describing, on the client side. They have an obligation to treat the candidate professionally, to prepare for everything you're describing, and that also happens a surprising amount of times, where it's not okay to show up 15 minutes late, right, just because and it happens I've seen I mean, I have story after story over the past 20 years of candidates who just it's an instant turnoff and there's no back from it, because that's their first impression and that's the lasting one. And so I love that you're giving that advice on both sides, because we too often focus on the candidates and, yes, they need to do their part, but you have some of the employers.
Vicky Brown:Again, recruiting is a marketing activity. You do that to a client. Would you show up 15 minutes late to a client just because it's a power play or something? No, you would not Be respectful. Be professional, do your job and then you have a fair shot at evaluating how they're doing their job, how they're doing their part.
Pete Newsome:I love that. I'm so glad you shared that, because it's a message you can't hear enough and don't hear enough. Let me ask you just take a little bit of a different track before we wrap up AI in the recruiting process. Now I'm a fan of AI. I'm also somewhat terrified of where it's heading. You have a lot of reasons. We'll talk about that later. That's a different show, but it is here and in recruiting I think it's going to become more prevalent throughout this year and beyond. So what's your take on AI right now?
Vicky Brown:I'm in love with AI, but I always say please and thank you. So when the robots take over, hopefully they will remember that I was courting. I'm in love with it but I am terrified. But I do use it and I'm trying to get even better and more proficient with it. So there are a couple of things around AI, specifically around recruiting and also as involves human resources. There is lots of legislation that's happening and a lot some of it has happened. Some of it is at the federal level. So, again, we don't know what's going to be rolled back, how it's going to be rolled back or if it's going to be rolled back. At the same time, various states are beefing up their guidance around the use of AI, particularly in the recruiting process.
Vicky Brown:My general philosophy around artificial intelligence is it's perfect, but you need human. You need, like, human management of it, so you can't just say, oh, I'm handling it through AI and I don't have to do anything. There are definitely those cases of people who don't look like they're the right people, but there's something in the way they wrote, or there's something in the way they described their community service, or there's something in there that that piques your interest. You call them and you have a conversation with them and they're really intriguing and it turns out that they're a wonderful candidate. It just didn't come through on the resume. The keyword wasn't there. You're just looking for keywords. You can miss those people. I know we've talked a lot about people self-selecting and being specific around what their requirements are, but there are those moments and you don't really want to. You want to minimize the chance of you missing those moments.
Vicky Brown:On the legislative front, though, you have to be careful, because AI is not how do I put this? There is not a guarantee that there's not some bias in there. So if you're just using AI to handle all of the first and second level, go rounds of sorting resumes probably not a great idea. I love the idea where you the candidate doesn't even get the link to apply until they've done X, y and Z, because again, then they are self-selecting out. Then you have people who are not going to follow instructions, but it's not AI looking for a specific keyword.
Vicky Brown:If you are going to do that, then make sure that, whatever keywords you're looking at, you have a broad range of them and it's worth it sometimes, depending on how much you're going to use AI in your recruiting process.
Vicky Brown:Honestly and I say this probably way too often for my clients, but I think you should probably talk to labor council just to make sure you've dotted your I's and crossed your T's, make sure that you've had a professional say this process passes muster, and then put that in the file and hang on to it if anyone asked the question because then you've done your due diligence. It's very complicated right now. It's going to get more complicated as more legislation comes down and more pushback comes from users, because it is a tremendous time saver and, when done right, the platforms are getting better. They're improving. They're not perfect yet. They still hallucinate All of that still happens but they're getting better and so it's such a fluid situation that you really have to pay very close attention and, depending on how much you're going to use AI in the process, you really need to know that you have the backup that you need to support that.
Pete Newsome:I agree with everything you said. My first-hand experiences over many years is everything we could say about candidates. You can say there's a similar story to be told on the employer side and since we sit in the middle, like you do, you get to see both of these things. And almost very few people are good at writing resumes. And, yeah, just like there's very few good job descriptions out there currently and that's okay. If we judge candidates on the quality of their resume, we we brought most of them and so I I I don't get hung up on that. For the same reason, I don't get hung up on job descriptions. I just assume it's not going to be very good.
Pete Newsome:And if you use that proponent, that's the cover of the book and the book has to tell or the cover has to tell enough of the story that I'm going to want to open the book. Right, but beyond that you're probably not. You don't need to be a potential resume writer as a candidate. You need to be great at what it is. You do whatever that is and it just needs to get past that first level.
Pete Newsome:So if there's any takeaway from our conversation today for whoever is listening, you have two people who've been doing this a long time. Saying get to the individuals, I think is really what we're both talking about, and I love everything you've said in that regard, because it's my lived experience that you don't want to rely on things like a screening process or AI and I love it too, and it's not going away and we have to use it, jarred, ban it or get left behind. But you have to give the need to service and get to the individual, and as soon as we can do that, then we're going to be a lot better off. But it takes a commitment of time by the individual, which is what's needed in order to.
Pete Newsome:I'm going to invest my time in you. To recruit you for this job, you have to show your willingness. I'm going to consider as a candidate going to work for a company. They should show their interest in me as a candidate. We're filling that role with the right, with the right person, and that's much easier said than done.
Vicky Brown:And if you could, if you want to.
Pete Newsome:That's like a beautiful world to live in.
Vicky Brown:I have a little pro tip for my fellow business owners and business leaders. I have a little pro tip for my fellow business owners and business leaders. I have a small business, you have a small. We're small business owners. We know what the day looks like. Usually it's sitting on our head from the moment we start until the moment we're done in the evening. But you don't have to do it all yourself. I know we've talked a lot about what the responsibility and accountability is on the hiring manager or on the business owner side. I know what your calendar looks like. It is there. You haven't gotten. Don't have a spare second. I understand that. And now I'm coming along going. I want you to sit back and think about copywriting a job posting, because it's a marketing exercise. So I totally get that Exactly.
Vicky Brown:But the thing that we always have to remember is we are not doing this alone. Part of our DNA as entrepreneurs is to charge forward and get it done, no matter what we keep forgetting. You can delegate, you can get help, you can get support. So use the expertise that's around you, use your team. Let someone else do that first draft of the career pathing and you can come in and do edits.
Vicky Brown:You don't have to do it all because, if the odds are, if the choices are, either I'm going to try to make time to get it done or I'm not going to do it at all. You're not going to do it at all. So use your team, use experts like your firm. Really get out there and use the resources that are. Be resourceful, use the resources that are available for you, because it's critical that you get this kind of thing done for your business. It's going to improve your business. It's going to improve the quality of the candidates that you ultimately hire, it's going to improve the lives of your team and they are going to make you stand on the shoulders of your team. They are going to make your business or break it.
Pete Newsome:So do everything you can for them Great advice and I'm sure that the message resonates with more than we can even think of. There's no doubt about it. Thank you so much for your time. Before we go, just give me a profile of who your ideal client is to work with, so who should call you and what point your contact information and show notes and make sure everyone has access to that. But that's your ideal profile of company to work with and can benefit from your service.
Vicky Brown:Thank you. We actually work with clients nationwide. We're located in California so we know all the California weirdness and we have a bunch of clients in New York, so we know the New York weirdness too. But we work all over the nation and, generally speaking, clients that have 100 or fewer employees are a great target for us, because that's where things get a little complicated. We have a bunch of clients that are 40 people, 20 people, 30 people, so we're on the low end as well as the higher end. Once they get around 100, it usually is helpful to have someone in-house and then we can support that person. To have someone in-house and then we can support that person. But 100 or less probably. I would say our very sweetest of the sweet spot would be around 40, 50, like that, because 50 is where a bunch of labor laws kick in, but they count the people differently, so you might think you're at 45 and you might really be at 50. So that range is really. We can provide a lot, a great deal of value at that level.
Pete Newsome:Perfect and just through this conversation you and I didn't know each other prior to today. I have a lot of confidence saying you are someone that anyone should be very comfortable reaching out to. You just tell someone who has the right knowledge, right depth of knowledge, and I've really enjoyed this conversation and hope that we get a chance to do it again, because your experience today just speaks for itself with how you answer these questions today, and I can't thank you enough for it. Thank you very much.
Vicky Brown:Oh, my goodness, Thank you for the kind words and thank you so much. This has really been a great chat and we have a little gift for your. I'll give you the information for the show notes. But we have a little gift for your audience. They can get a little kind of ultimate HR workflow and hopefully that'll help them get through their day.
Pete Newsome:Wonderful, we look forward to sharing that For sure. So, vicki, one more time, thank you again and have a great rest of the day, lovely. Thank you, you too.