Hire Calling

How to Scale a Recruitment Business With Diane Prince

• Pete Newsome • Episode 78

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On this episode, special guest Diane Prince shares her secrets of entrepreneurial success in the staffing industry. From her start as a temp to selling her thriving business, Diane’s story is all about vision, grit, and chasing your dreams.

In our conversation with Diane, we explore her unique path as a solo founder, balancing independence with the power of partnerships. Learn how her creative approach to reference checks opened doors to unexpected opportunities, highlighting the underrated art of networking. We also tackle the challenge of growing sales teams, discussing how to shift from being a star salesperson to a great manager and the mysterious $20 million hurdle that many businesses face.

Finally, we dive into the crucial topics of hiring, training, and keeping top talent in recruitment. Diane believes that strong leadership is the key to excellence and avoiding mediocrity. Her hands-on involvement in the interview process shows the importance of finding the right fit for the role.

For those looking for inspiration and a successful sales mindset, this episode is packed with practical tips and valuable insights to boost your staffing strategies.

Additional Resources:

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👋 FOLLOW PETE NEWSOME ONLINE:
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petenewsome/
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@PeteNewsome

👋 FOLLOW DIANE PRINCE ONLINE:
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dianeprincejohnston/

Pete Newsome:

You're listening to the Hire Calling Podcast, your source for all things hiring, staffing and recruiting. I'm Pete Newsome and my guest today is Diane. Prince Diane, how are you today?

Diane Prince:

Hey, pete, I'm great Glad to be here. This is my highlight of the day, so I was excited about it.

Pete Newsome:

I'll take it.

Diane Prince:

I'll take what I can get.

Pete Newsome:

Highlight of the day is good enough, diane, you are a coach today. You have a long history in staffing We'll talk about that but you spend your time today coaching owners of recruiting and staffing companies, helping recruiting firms get into staffing, if they're not already. Tell us a little bit, just to kick things off, about how you spend your days today.

Diane Prince:

Yeah, so thanks for the question. So I have some clients who I call my executive coaching level clients, and that's very customized, different things that founders go through. Sometimes it's issues with their business partners or co-founders growing, managing their executive teams, things like that. So that's part of my day, and then I also have a group program where I basically want to help agency owners and anyone who wants to start an agency. I guess I have a lot of varied experience, so I want to help them with all aspects of it, and one thing in particular that I'm really passionate about is building an asset in your business. So, as you mentioned, one of the things I work on is helping people to understand how to add temp staffing as an offering so that they have recurring revenue.

Pete Newsome:

So the highlight of this conversation is, in many respects, is that you have grown and sold staffing companies that won for at least 50 million dollars and that I'm sorry. You grew the company at 50 million dollars, sold it for 28. I know that's public so hopefully you don't mind me sharing that. Congratulations on that, thank you. That is commendable and something that many recruiting and staffing companies owners, who I know, aspire to achieve. So we'll see what kind of secrets we can get out of you today on that if you're willing to share.

Diane Prince:

Absolutely.

Pete Newsome:

Well, let's go backwards and go forwards. How did you get started in staffing?

Diane Prince:

How did you get into this crazy world in the first place? Yeah Well, I temped a lot. I temped through college and grad school. My first experience was I used to get. When I was in college, I used to get student work permits and go work abroad. And when I was 19, I was pouring beer at the glass blower pub in Soho in London, which I wasn't really a legal briefing agent in the States.

Diane Prince:

I was obviously super clueless and the one and only night that I worked there I was asked how fast I type. And then I got into. Then that's how I started. I got into staffing and on my first assignment I overheard the office manager tell another employee remind me to never to hire a temp again. So and then I just I temped through college and grad school, so I was familiar but really got started because I wanted to. I started with the vision and I think it's really important for anyone going into entrepreneurship to know what they want to get out of it. And so it was really my then husband and I. We were in our mid-20s. We wanted to see if we could start a business that we could build and exit and retire in our 30s. So it didn't start with hey, I have a recruiting experience, let's start a temp agency. It was this is our goal, and then what are different businesses that could get us there? That said that we could achieve that goal. And then we back into it.

Pete Newsome:

You started with the end in mind? Really yes, which is rare, I think from from the staffing companies I owners that, who I know, had you worked as a recruiter prior to that or or not at all.

Diane Prince:

No, not at all. I had, I would know. I had a master's degree in French literature and I was working at a computer distributor as a system buyer. I mean random and. But we put together because. So my dad has spent his entire career in title insurance and then he got my husband a job in a title insurance company. So that was our niche. So we saw the need in that niche for contract workers and that's where we started.

Pete Newsome:

Okay, that's fascinating. That's really unique and rare. Good for you for seeing that. But I have to ask which distributor did you work for? I worked for Tech Data Corporation for a number of years.

Diane Prince:

Okay, I was at, maricel. Did you ever hear of?

Pete Newsome:

Maricel yeah, I remember Maricel. Yeah, I think Tech Data and Maricel back in those days this was in the 90s were kind of neck and neck and I was also a buyer for a number of years 3Com and Nortel Networks and products is what I spent my days on back a long time ago to be in that world. So okay, so you started the business easier said than done. High failure rate what allowed you to succeed, do you think, when so many others fail?

Diane Prince:

Gosh, just I mean. Well, one thing I think not knowing anything was in some ways helpful, and not having you know it was a lot of common sense. Not that I had a lot of common sense back then, no one who starts a business.

Diane Prince:

Does I don't think Right, maybe a little bit more now than in my 20s, hopefully, but I mean grit, honestly it was. And also not getting overwhelmed, like one thing we did was just one step, like one step at a time, and just started Like just did it. You know there's so many people who have. I'm sure you know it's not about the idea and having the idea you have to have a good idea but it's about the execution. And I mean people would say to us like people would come and pick up their paychecks and they'd be like, oh, great idea, I had this idea three years ago and we're like, well, no-transcript, effectively that I didn't know what I was doing either.

Pete Newsome:

But I had an idea. I knew enough about the industry and knew how to sell and believed I can get clients. But I didn't know if I could recruit. It had been a long time and the world had changed. I was recruiting pre-Monster, pre-internet, when I first started. People would historically come to me and say I want to be an entrepreneur. I'd say, great, what's your idea? And they'd say I don't know. I just know I don't want to work for someone else. You actually did that because my advice over the years has been people will come up with an idea first. You have to know how you're going to make money and you have to be good at something. You you took a very different approach, which I find fascinating.

Diane Prince:

Yeah, yeah, because I think you know people who have ideas, cause I'm sure you know, you hear it all the time I have this, this business idea, or we do this business with me, and the thing is it's it's really it's about because entrepreneurship is such it's it changes the the whole, your whole life and the way that you live. So you have to want to have that, you have to understand Well, not that you can understand it until you're there, but you really have to have that drive, because otherwise what I find is that you can start a business and I have clients who who come to me who have successful businesses, but they don't like them because they've built a business not around how they want to live. So that's why I think it is so important to have that drive and know you want to be an entrepreneur, even more so than the idea, because otherwise you can be led by an idea and then you're solving problems for the world and other people, but you're not solving your own problems.

Pete Newsome:

Well, I believe most entrepreneurs fall into the category that I did, which is someone who is a tactician, for lack of a better way to put it. There's a book called the E-Myth. I don't know if you've ever read that book.

Diane Prince:

And.

Pete Newsome:

I think that's a phrase that comes from that book it's been years since I've read it where you're good at doing something In my case it was selling and so I believe there's a better way to do it. I wanted to do business in a personal way. I was tired of working for Fortune 500 companies that were constantly telling me what I couldn't do and contracts that I couldn't change. I just wanted to operate with efficiency and fluidity, and the only way I was going to do that was start my own business. But I suspect that most people don't really know what they're getting into when they start a business. I certainly didn't. I thought I'd have more freedom. I think I have less. Since I did work in for another company. What was different coming in than what you expected?

Diane Prince:

You know, I'm not even sure how to answer that question because I think I just like we started working on it pretty quickly after we had that idea in mind. So I don't even know if I had expectations. You know, back then I tend to be a pretty spontaneous person. I've worked on that, like I have a lot of tools now that I that I employ to not be. You know, I have very high level of risk tolerance. So I would say for me it wasn't. I don't know if I really had, and I can't even remember if I did, like had, specific expectations, but I mean it was like not nothing, like I, it's like having a baby which you know.

Diane Prince:

You just don't know if you're like you can't you can't explain to someone what it's going to be like before you know. You just have to experience it, no matter what, how many, what words you try, and it's the same thing with entrepreneurship you just don't really know until you're doing it.

Pete Newsome:

So I'm curious. I started on my own. I was by myself, Didn't have a peer. I missed that. I didn't have a manager. I missed that too, by not having anyone else to turn around and ask a question of. It was just yeah, the buck really does stop a few, but you had a partner. Do you think that that allowed you? You think that was helpful at the beginning? I don't know any different. You don't either, because you started with a partner. But when you look at the benefits and potential negatives of that, what's your take on starting with a partner?

Diane Prince:

Yeah, because and I did I was a solo founder with my clothing business and it's way different. I mean, ok, so having good partners is amazing and what the thing that makes? From my experience in different partners, the thing that makes a partnership successful is that each person has a really their own, their own personal mission and something that they know that they want to get out of the business and that sticks people together, because, I mean, there were times when people would have left, but having that like having everybody's individual drive, and that again goes back to the vision, not just like, oh, that's a good idea. Let me do it with you, because then I did try to have a co-founder with my clothing business. It was more like looking for something to do and it didn't work.

Diane Prince:

I think that having good partnerships and co-founders is fantastic, but having the wrong one is disastrous. That's part of why I started coaching is because I saw what it was like to be a solo founder, and so a lot of my clients are solo founders, some I work with teams, executive teams but having that person, having a sounding board because that's what I had when I had partners and then when I was, when I was a solo founder. I realized I was driving my employees crazy, because I'm like bouncing ideas off of them and then all of a sudden they're, they're, they're implementing them, and I'm like, what do you mean? Like I was just talking, you know so. So yeah, it is, it is a big difference. But you don't want to have, you don't want to have the wrong partner, because that can just. That's terrible.

Pete Newsome:

I found it surprisingly lonely for years. For years I thought that I and I craved to have a peer some, or a manager even, which which sounds crazy, in a way, for people who haven't been in that position. I've had this conversation with so many over the years. They're like what do you mean? You wish you had a manager, I wish I had someone to be that sounding board, as you mentioned. And it's not the same with employees, I found, because everyone's motivations are genuine, right, but they all have a different perspective and angle that they come from, whether it's conscious or not, where if you have a co-founder, you're really in it with someone else who has the same end game in mind in your case, that you did. And I find that just fascinating because so many decisions I've made over the years, I look back on and think if I had someone else to tell me, no, that's a bad idea, I probably would have ended up in a very different place a better place.

Pete Newsome:

Maybe not, but it's easy to look at the bad decisions and think I wish I had avoided those. I've made a few good ones along the way too. I think a partner is potentially very valuable to a founder. So early success that's hard to come by, did you? Was there a point ever when you started where you said this isn't going to work? I mean, did you come out of the gate? You know fast, how did? How did the early years go?

Diane Prince:

Yeah, I mean we came out of the gate fast. We had it was we. We actually thought the client that we thought was going to be our like, we're like if we just have them. It was Chicago title. That's where my dad worked. We met with HR, you know, before we were like, yes, but they took a long time to even use us. But then we got, I mean got our first client really quickly. It was so back then. You know, you mentioned before monster but beginnings of emails. So I had an ad in the LA Times and it was a three-line ad because they were only $120. And I put out an ad for a title assistant and it was near my work, and so I'd go on my lunch break and I got a resume, the first resume I got. I cried, I couldn't believe someone sent me a resume.

Diane Prince:

I quit my job the next day Impulsive was the word I was looking for before and then I got my first client. Our first client it was a huge client was Fidelity National Title. I just started doing reference checks, so I started asking everybody for references and then I just called and I didn't have a job for her, but her name was Karen Saul and I said I'm calling to ask you some questions about Karen Saul and he's like I'm like, and we are called Title Temps at first I'm like this is Diane from Title Temps and he was like from what? I'm like this is Diane from Title Temps and he was like from what? And then I'm like, oh, you don't know about us.

Pete Newsome:

And then I mean we literally had no business at the time. Yeah, nobody knows about us.

Diane Prince:

And I'm like we sent someone over to come talk to you. And then I'm like you know, we're 26, 27. My husband grabs his briefcase and he goes down to Orange County, which is like a two-hour drive and and we got it. You know, we got our first client.

Pete Newsome:

So reference checks have to ask you about that. I was taught the same way. That was 101 when I started with Aerotech in 1993. Checked references and we still check references on everyone today. It's something that I believe in strongly as a recruiter. I think that's my job. I'm surprised that it doesn't happen very frequently today. Have you seen that as well?

Diane Prince:

Yeah, I mean surprised in one way, and I mean even like with my clients, like that's one thing too. Like I'm always asking for references for vendors and like anybody. I mean, you learn so much, so I just make it my policy Anyone I'm going to work with, I need to ask for, I need to get references. That also gives me a bit of cooling off period, you know, and if I get excited about hiring or working with someone, but yeah, and then also, just as far as for biz dev, I mean connecting the dots. It's like you know, that's gold.

Pete Newsome:

Yeah, and I tell my team today that if I started from scratch and didn't have any network at all, if you dropped me in a strange city, I would start just speaking with candidates and asking them who they worked for, who they reported to, what was going on at their previous jobs, and references would be the default way I would develop business. It seems to be a bit of a lost art. Why do you think that is?

Diane Prince:

Yeah, it's interesting. I think it's also what I've noticed, not just the references, but, peop, I think it's because, well, there's so much information out there today, right like when I started, we we bought a book called remember those dummies books the black it was it was how to start a temp agency for dummies that was yeah yes, I wish I it.

Diane Prince:

I've been trying to Google it to find it, but that was that was literally how we started. That was the information that was available, right, and we like took someone to dinner who worked at, like, apple one or something like that, but other than that there's. But now. So when people, when people come to me and are in my program or they'll ask me, like, how do I do biz dev, and I think people, for some reason, people instinctually go to cold outreach or they go to they feel like there's something that other people are doing that they don't know. And most of the people you know look at their LinkedIn and I'm like I guarantee you you have enough warm leads to build a $50 million business.

Diane Prince:

You know I now I do cold outreach. I like cold outreach, I like having it going on in the background. Don't get me wrong. Cold outreach is great, but for some reason, people just kind of I don't know what it is they, they, they, it's like it's like they. It's almost like they doubt themselves or they doubt their network, or they doubt the and and and. But yeah, I don't know, because that's our business, is people driven. And we all, we all say we build relationships right, like who doesn't say that? And that's all it is. And it's so easy. If you, it's not easy, but if you pick up the phone and you talk to candidates, you're going to get. You're going to get business.

Pete Newsome:

I think there's a because I've, I've this has been a conversation I've had many times over the years internally, and I think that there's a uh, a fear of of being rejected, a fear of asking for business and not feeling worthy of asking for it if you're speaking with someone who's senior. A lot of recruiters are young and when I started I was 23, 22 even maybe and I remember one of my first candidates wanted to come by the office and the guy was older than my dad and I was terrified because I felt like a fraud. I thought who am I, this 22 year old kid, talking to this guy who's in his fifties, about his salary and very intimate details? And I had to get over that and to sell, which I've done throughout my career. You have to have a certain level of confidence and I find that that's hard to come by right. The talking to candidates is one thing. Recruiters feel like they're doing them, providing a service for them.

Pete Newsome:

But, that doesn't translate when it comes to speaking with prospective clients. It almost feels like you're not qualified to ask for to do business with them. Where I find that so interesting? Because people of course we should ask, we're in the staffing business, they're in the hiring business. We should be asking them how they hire.

Diane Prince:

Here's a, here's a, here's a tip that I cause I I agree with you and some people. Some people I think are natural are more natural biz dev people and some people some people I think are natural are more natural biz dev people and some people are more natural recruiters. Like I'm not as detail oriented, I'm much more natural and biz dev than I am at recruiting. But I also, like, did an imposter syndrome test and it was like congratulations you're one of the 5% that doesn't have imposter syndrome.

Pete Newsome:

Okay, that's good, that's important.

Diane Prince:

But one thing that I tell people is just remember, especially for entrepreneurs and agency owners, you know to hype yourself up before calls and just like, remember they're just people in jobs. Like these are people, especially entrepreneurs. I'm like you're doing cool shit, like you're building a business, You're doing this for your family, like you have, you're a, you're an entrepreneur, this person's they're not. You know not to like downplay them or anything, but like they're just people in jobs and it's not so, so there's. And also just like, put yourself in a place of like this is what. This is what they need me to be right now.

Diane Prince:

You know, they don't need me like this client, this person I'm going to call. They need me to be the person that's going to tell them how I'm going to solve their problem and fill their roles. This is what they need from me right now. They don't need like nobody needs me to be this. Like you know, be anxious and you know so it's kind of like you're not saying that you won't have that fear or those feelings, but those are some things that I find that help to get past that.

Pete Newsome:

Well, and you have to walk through the fire to some degree. I was a terrible. I was so awkward, I had an out of body experience. Every time I would stand up in front of a room for years when I was young, until I didn't anymore. And then one day it just clicks and you do realize you're worthy, you do realize you're not an imposter by doing it.

Pete Newsome:

But I don't know, and I've never figured out, how to train someone to be comfortable with that unless they're willing to put in the reps and to do it and to be awkward and to be uncomfortable and to say stupid things. And then you realize well, I'm not going to say that again, there's a better way to say it I find that the most limiting thing in the staffing industry. So I want to talk about that for a minute. As to why you think most companies are stunted in their growth, you figured out how to break past the ceiling that's very common of being around 20 million in revenue. Your founder driven companies. That just can't scale. Why? What do you think the limiter is? I have my own thoughts on it, but we agreed to talk about this on air.

Diane Prince:

So one thing that I think is the lack of client diversity and having an anchor client strategy, because a lot of agencies will rely on a couple of big clients and it's really important to have that diversification. And then there's the mindset part as well, and thinking that you, just you know, if we have these ideas in our head, like this is the size I'm going to be. That's, you know, generally, the size that we become. So it's knowing like. I think that like people message me all the time and they're like I had no idea I could build an eight-figure agency until I saw your post on LinkedIn. And it's like people build nine-figure agencies, like people who started, you know, when I started. There's people who are still doing it, who are billionaires. You know they didn't sell out that's what, that was their path. I think just knowing that that's even an option is that I think those are two of the reasons I think that people?

Pete Newsome:

what do you think? So we talked briefly about the e-myth book and I think a lot of it comes down to that, where the person who starts a business has a certain level of confidence and ability to recruit to sell. They may have a history in the industry, enough clients where they feel like they can hang a shingle and pay their bills. But, tactician, they're the one who's doing the job, they're in the business, they're not running a business. So in hindsight, if I went back 18 years, I would do things very differently than I have. I would have pulled myself out of that role much sooner. I would have.

Pete Newsome:

I'm not a good manager. I'm not an empathetic manager. I'm not. I'm an. I'm made to be an individual contributor. That's why I was able to start a business and I was the only salesperson until I think we were probably about 10 million in revenue.

Pete Newsome:

I could sell. It was natural for me. It was what I was meant to do, but I wasn't meant to manage necessarily and to be able to train other people. Selling to me is natural. I can't tell you why. I'm good at selling. I just am good at selling and I've tried every possible way over the years to build and train the sales force and we have great salespeople but I think they're great independently of what we've taught or tried to do, because that's been our limiter.

Pete Newsome:

And when I talk to peers around the country through TechServe Alliance I'm in a peer group there, other associations it is a recurring theme where you can figure out recruiting right. I mean, some companies do it better than others. But if there's some basic things that if you, if you can get down and have the right system and you're efficient and have the right employees and take care of them, you can recruit. But to sell, to develop new business, that seems to be the limiter is what I've seen of companies. You hit a ceiling where I just I'm just using 20 million as a round number that companies really just have trouble getting past because they can't develop a sales force. Do you think that's? Uh, is that a surprise for you to hear? Do you agree with?

Diane Prince:

that well, I, I hear what you're saying. I think I think there gets to be a point where, once you get to, you know now that you're saying it and I have a client around that same, that same revenue, and like what I, what I observed is that sometimes you also get used to how you're doing things. So, like you've built a company a certain way, you might have some key people on your team, what you definitely do at that point, you have some executives on your team and then at some point sometimes the company starts running you, you, and if you're not continually driving to move the needle, it's. You know it's like it's like in a family, like family dynamics are very difficult to change. You know we all have what kind of our roles in our, in our families sure, and it's really hard to be someone different and break out of it.

Diane Prince:

And I think it's very similar when you build a business people get, patterns happen, culture builds and sometimes it's it's difficult to innovate. So I think it's just always like what's important is always, and in seeking help and getting like you're, you're in a group and I'm in that's, you know, hire me to kind of help them to see things in a different way, and I think that's something that also. What do you think about that?

Pete Newsome:

I think you're right. I think it's you don't know what you don't know, and when you don't have someone looking over your shoulder, the emperor not having any clothes, so to speak right when I observed one of my clients. Over the years I saw them grow from a relatively small organization to a very large one and we were I had a front row view for that because I was able to staff many of their people and it was like my baby for years. And they grew to a point they started to have challenges within the organization after they hit a couple thousand people and the challenges that didn't exist when they had 100, 200 employees, because it was a different kind of organization. And I would say out loud the CEO needs to remove themselves from the equation because the person that had the foresight to start the business, who was a trailblazer, an innovator, I mean, just took a lot of excellence in what they did. It's a different skill set than running a 2,000 person organization. Not that we've grown to that point, far from it but the skill set that allowed me to quit my job. My wife was pregnant with her third child at the time, right, so I was like I'm quitting and I'm going to do this because I'm tired of talking about it. There's a catalyst that caused me to do it. Not everyone will do that, I'm aware of that, you know that. But I did and I survived and I figured it out and I had the work ethic and I had the sales ability to get business. I figured out recruiting right. Losing was not an option. I had all of whatever that is. Those are an entirely different set of skills than what allows someone to scale an organization and to manage a team, and so I think what I saw in others I couldn't necessarily apply in my own situation, and I see that if we knew what was wrong, we'd fix it Right. So I think we just don't know what to do to fix it. I mean, right now.

Pete Newsome:

I'm pretty transparent with talking about successes and failures. Our company has an incredible reputation. I don't believe there's anyone better at what we do, and I would thank anyone's benefits by using us for recruiting and staffing. But we can't scale our sales organization the way we should. We keep hitting a ceiling, and if that formula exists, I'm unaware of it. So that's the question Do you think that there's a formula you can apply? Do you think if you stepped in doing what you've had, because I think you have to experience something too right To know what it feels like. You have to start a business to know what it's like to start a business. I can't describe hunger to someone who's never been hungry. Right, but you've had that success. Do you think you could step into any organization now and say, here's how you can fix your sales problems? Any organization now and say here's how you can fix your sales problems.

Diane Prince:

Yeah, and it's, and it yes, because I do that and it's it. It is different, Like it's just the same thing. When people ask me what, what the best way is to do biz dev, it's, I believe it's. It's, it's personal, Like it's different for different organizations. So, like what I've done with the one client that I mentioned, like what he's done is phenomenal and he actually stepped in now as chief revenue officer Like he's like I'm going to be interim head of sales, because sometimes you do have to dive in and like he's doing things are completely just moving the needle.

Diane Prince:

But, I look at it instead of saying, and I always in business, because it can get so overwhelming or you can feel stuck or that you can't do something, but I turn it into a question. So I would say, if I were at, if I had a staffing agency and I was stuck at 20 million and couldn't get past that, what I, how I would approach it is I wonder how, I wonder how I'm going to get to 50 million? Right, and that was always like in business, like when I said my clothing business was so complicated, I mean we did, we did had a multi-level marketing model and I manufactured the clothing and like. But every time that I step back and I said, like I didn't try to figure it all out at once, you know, because getting past 20 million, I mean it's a big thing, right, and it's like okay, I wonder what the next step is, I wonder how I'm going to do that. And every time I've taken that approach, I've been able to. Then the next step reveals itself.

Pete Newsome:

Interesting. I love it, and so that's what you do. Now, right, you step in, you go in. How long does it take typically for you to spend with a new organization to have a good sense of what their problems are or, more specifically, what they need to improve and change?

Diane Prince:

Yeah, I mean it really depends. I ask, I'm really good at asking questions. It is like I had this one client who was telling me how to do biz dev. I said that's not. Was telling me how to do biz dev, I said that's not how this is going to work. So you know, we always look at like clues, like what has worked, like what has worked in the past, and then I mean three weeks later she's slacking me. I am obsessed like everything you've told me to do is working and it's. I mean, it's just stuff that from asking her questions, questions really. So it's sort of like it's like a diet, any diet If you follow a diet, it will work.

Pete Newsome:

Like it doesn't matter what you're doing, it's Weight.

Diane Prince:

Watchers or Keto or whatever, but it's finding the one that you're going to do and stick to and then also figuring out how consistency is. You know that grit Like? Remember sales, sales is the lifeline of your business. And that's another thing too, because often sales is like gets put on the back burner when people get busy. But never forget that. Never forget that sales is your lifeline, because that's really common too, that businesses are growing, things are, you know, you think things are good, but then all of a sudden you don't have a pipeline because you've taken your foot off the gas on sales.

Pete Newsome:

Right, absolutely, and that you know it's easy to see how that can happen with a small company who doesn't hire in advance or in anticipation of what's coming. And to keep your foot on the gas exactly what you said. Keep your foot on the gas Exactly what you said. I'm curious if you had a good assigned a percentage to it, maybe sales and recruiting only. Maybe there's a third component like operations or other. What would you say is typically the limiter? And my impression from my peer group is it's 90 percent. Sales is a limitation and then 10 percent recruiting and anything else. What do you see in your consulting practice?

Diane Prince:

Yeah, that is so interesting because people do have different skills. But yeah, it is most of the people that come to me have biz dev challenges. It is mostly challenges and biz dev. But I would also say to your point about the e-myth letting go empowering other people. Now, I used to be a terrible manager and most people are. I mean, most people aren't trained to manage and so I really had to learn, like I had to get tools to help me, and that's one thing that I hope a few people are. You know, some people are like I'm a great manager, I cannot recruit or do sales and I love leading people. You know there's an understanding to everybody's different Sure.

Diane Prince:

Everybody's completely different, has different skill sets. I think that personality is rarer and there's personalities that will build and scale and run a mature business and they have that ability to work with the company and adapt and change. I'm not one of those people. You know I build and then I like to get out. But yeah, I would say that biz dev is definitely a lion's share of the challenges.

Pete Newsome:

There's tens of thousands of staffing companies. So this is a general question, of course, right, because, to your point, every situation is unique. Is a general question, of course, right, because, to your point, every situation is unique. But how frequently do you think it's the people versus the process? When you go in and look at someone, look at a new organization, a lot of people inherently don't like change. We know that. Especially successful people are successful to some degree, right. Even change is hard. As an employee, we know that. I think owners who hire you are probably more willing to do whatever it takes.

Diane Prince:

Yeah.

Pete Newsome:

Or they wouldn't hire you in the first place, right, they know what they're getting into, they need your advice, but how frequently is it the people versus the process that's the problem.

Diane Prince:

It's often the people and you know so. Sometimes people do hire me and it takes them like a year to want to be willing to change, which is pretty interesting.

Pete Newsome:

Why would they hire you in the first place?

Diane Prince:

They know that changes need to be made, but everybody's different, like there's some people that like instantly. They're like OK, I'm doing this, you know, and this is working, but some things I don't know. Just everybody's different and hears things when they need to. But yeah, one thing that I see as common is having the wrong people who are mediocre performers, right, and that sets a culture and we're a service business and our business is our people. Like that's how good we are is the people that we have.

Pete Newsome:

And that's it.

Diane Prince:

And being. Another common thing is being afraid to fire people and it's. You know, that's when we do that and there's a couple of key roles that I help people to put into their businesses. So, to answer your question, too, about processes, so that was a really key role for us is once we hired an ops person. That was key because he was like, he was super detailed and that was a skill that we didn't have.

Diane Prince:

So it's people, but the people then also putting in the processes, and people have to follow the processes. And you also have to ask yourself, when it is the people, you have to ask yourself too, like is it me? So there's, like you know, if you have this from EOS, do they get it? Do they want it and can they do it? And if they don't get it, who's fault? Is it your fault or that? Are they motivated? You can't motivate someone more than they're motivated for themselves. Do they want it? Do they want the job and do they have the capacity to do it? And again, is that you or them Like, have you provided them with what they need or is it just somebody that just can't do the job?

Pete Newsome:

Isn't it ultimately the owner's fault, regardless right Fault for letting that persist, if nothing else?

Diane Prince:

Yeah, yeah, it's. You know it's always the owner's fault, so it's it's. I mean, do you think you can?

Pete Newsome:

hire. You think you could avoid that being in that scenario by by hiring better, which is which is ironic that I'm asking that. Right, we're in the staffing industry and I tell companies, clients, prospects, look, we're going to do everything we can up front, but you don't know what someone's like till you live with them, right, you can have all the panel interviews, you can stretch it out, you can have 10 rounds, whatever, whatever, right, but you're not really going to know. I think there's a certain level of assessment you can do on the front end. We know that. Do you think you can? Is that something you get involved in where you teach people how to hire better? Hire for the right thing, so you're not having to fire someone quickly?

Diane Prince:

Yeah, yeah, definitely. With some of my clients I even do one of the rounds of the interview which is usually 15 minutes because they have really specific questions I ask them and I, like, I'll find things out. Yeah, like you know, her goal is to you know. Did you know that she just got an LLC for her trucking business yesterday?

Pete Newsome:

and that's what she wants to do, like that's.

Diane Prince:

You know they're like no, I didn't even know that. So, yeah, it's so. I heard a long time ago that we're typically agency recruiters, like we're typically bad at hiring for ourselves because we're different, Like we're used to hiring people like our product and we're kind of like selling them. You know so we kind of look sometimes, look at the good in the person, selling them. You know so we kind of look at, sometimes, look at the good in the person. But yeah, putting together systems really does help, but at the same time you, like you said, you don't really know until you have that. But there's, there's certain things especially, you know, I have some pretty strong opinions about for agency recruiting Most people get wrong. Should I share a couple of them with?

Pete Newsome:

you Sure yeah, absolutely.

Diane Prince:

So I mean one is they have to. So one thing I ask is I'll ask them to rank a few words. This is for a recruiter who's on commission, for agency right who's on commission, or you know part of their part of their set. You know usually like about half of their on target earnings as commission. So I always ask like, rank these words in order, and one of the words is compensation. If they don't say compensation is number one, I want to know why.

Pete Newsome:

Right.

Diane Prince:

Flexibility, work life balance, that's it's not going to be the role. You know. Nothing is wrong with that, you know. And I want them to answer honestly and the only answer that I will accept if I say I noticed you didn't say compensation in your first two, because career growth is okay. I think too, if the compensation's second and if they say, well, that's because I know I'll earn a lot of commission and base salary is not that important, I'm like that's the only acceptable answer because it's very different.

Diane Prince:

Agency recruiting is really different. And also I think it's a mistake to only look at people with recruiting backgrounds. You know, I mean I think you came from tech, my partner came from title insurance and we hired recruiters who had worked in our niche. We did not hire recruiters for a long time, like we only hired people that had worked in the niche, where that we were, that we were where we were placing people there's. I mean, look at, like everybody trains differently, most companies don't train well, and then we're hiring people that just because they have been recruiters and it I would rather hire somebody that has the sense of urgency and is motivated and you can train them.

Diane Prince:

And especially and this might be an unpopular thing to say, but it's very different people who are recruiting in-house than agency. And I wouldn't. I do not hire in less. So now agency people, I do help people from talent start their own businesses. That's different. But agency recruiters, who are hiring people from talent, are in-house recruiters because they need a job. It's a completely different skill set, it is mindset. It's not even you know, it's the skill set, but the mindset is completely different.

Pete Newsome:

Do you think that's unpopular? I don't think that's an unpopular opinion. I think it is a different mindset. Right, the skill set on paper, the job, may be similar, but the motivation for doing it and the purpose and the reason and how you make money, I mean that's all very different. So to me it's an entirely different role really. I mean it has the same title Again, you're doing, going through the same motions, kind of, but why you're doing it is vastly different.

Pete Newsome:

And when you're the, when you're internal, you have just a different set of considerations all day, every day, and one's not better than the other and I don't think one. I think the person would want that, would thrive in staffing. You know, an agency would not be happy in talent acquisition and vice versa.

Diane Prince:

Yeah. And some people will say on interviews, when I ask what their career goal? That's why it was my first question what are your career goals? And some people say I want to eventually go into in-house recruiting I'm like, well, this isn't the job for you. This business is not going to be a stepping stone for you.

Pete Newsome:

You're not going to be happy right, whether you could do it or not, and you have the skills. You're not going to enjoy it. You're not going to wake up every day having that sales mentality which is just vastly different than and that's what agencies need.

Diane Prince:

That's what we need is we need people that are going to wake up every day and want to kill it.

Pete Newsome:

So hiring for recruiting is one thing for sales, you know, for biz dev, do you like? This comes up a lot when I'm when I'm talking to my friends in the industry how long do you let a salesperson go until you decide this person's not going to work out like what's the time? How long do you let it go before you need to see results?

Diane Prince:

Oh gosh, that's a good question. I mean, I do like the 360 model, so I like it because you know, but I think some people though, I think in a 360 model. If you have to recognize, though, that some people are going to be stronger at BizDev and others recruiters, and don't try to make them equal in both sides, I don't know. I think it depends. I don't know that's a good question. I don't know if I have like a specific length of time. It's tough. I think hiring salespeople is one of the toughest things.

Pete Newsome:

It is, it is and that's where, as we talked about a few minutes ago, I think so many companies are looking for that answer and feel that that or at least feel that that's that would be the solution to their problems. And I think they're right because of my own experience where, if I had a formula I could I'm very confident that we can identify potential recruiters. We generally hire people who've never worked in recruiting. There's some exceptions, but first, second job out of school, sometimes first, but just the right mindset, as you described earlier.

Diane Prince:

So we're very much on the same page there well, you do have a business formula, though, because that's what that's what I hear a lot is. People think like that, but so what I believe is that you start out with you doing it yourself right. You do this because you have to fit, you have to know, because a common mistake is people hire lead gen companies. They hire outside salespeople who just don't work. That doesn't work. It happens a lot. So I think it's really important to find, and so if you're, say, if you're just starting out in your agency, or even now, like where you're at, you look back at clues and things that have worked. So if you're a new agency owner, you're starting out as, maybe as a solopreneur, but you know you want to scale then look at everything as. Treat every moment like you're training somebody else. Treat every call like OK, this is I'm creating a sales process and these are, these are ways that you can sell, this is what I'm creating a sales process and these are ways that you can sell. This is what's worked.

Diane Prince:

Also, I was in between. I told you I've gotten out of staffing a few times and I was in the startup world and I was head of sales for two different startups and for one of them. What we did was and I didn't, it was like content thought leadership. I knew nothing about the space, so I was in charge of selling and then building a sales team and the founders were these two Harvard grads that were absolutely brilliant. So what I did first and you can do this in staffing so I just listened, I brought people into calls. So I was basically a BDR biz dev rep and I'd bring people in, put them on a call with the founder.

Diane Prince:

I was on the call, I listened, I just furiously took notes and talking points. It's like, okay, she said this, she said this. And then the more calls that I was on, the more things that I heard her repeat and I'm like, okay, okay. And then finally I'm like, okay, I can do this now. So this is a way to kind of see, like if you look back at clues, what's worked for you, you know. Then bring someone on who's like, okay, I'm going to be on calls with Pete, listen to what Pete says. Okay, if you have someone smart who's motivated and they keep on listening, they keep on hearing those talking points, you know, so they get comfortable because the more that you, the more confident, the more that you know the product, the better you're going to sell. Have you read the Way of the Wolf by Jordan Belford?

Pete Newsome:

I know. I mean I know his story, but I haven't read his book.

Diane Prince:

You might like that and he talks about that and how important product knowledge is. So I would have him on your calls like calls like listen, listen, listen, you know.

Pete Newsome:

Yeah, it's, that's so true. I mean, I, I, I have thought of it and described it over the years as having arrows in your quiver right To to draw from. I've seen every scenario dozens, if not hundreds, of times. There's no question that's going to surprise me. I, I, and and and that's just me being in the role for a long time. But if you're new, you can get stumped easily. You don't know how to respond. You're thinking too much if you will, versus just being in the moment. And it's very obvious, I think, to whoever you're talking to if you're not really just listening and then really hearing and under comprehending what they're saying and then responding accordingly.

Diane Prince:

And.

Pete Newsome:

I don't know of a way to teach that other than hands on, like you described. I think that's really. It's hard to do, it's time consuming, to say the least, but I think that is a secret, if you will to to success in training Someone is. Just let them see. I've been through that. It's been a couple of years, quite a few years, but with one rep in particular who we hired, and I just remember she would say repeat phrases that I said, but not really in the right context.

Pete Newsome:

And then she would see how they would be the response you'd get. And she worked it out and it took her months of being pretty awful, to be quite frank, until she wasn't anymore Just like I was awful. And then, once it clicked, it was just a beautiful thing to see and she just grew so fast and had so much success. I wish she was still here. I mean, she has six kids now and has no time for this business anymore.

Diane Prince:

But yeah, higher I think you know in that, in that. So it sounds like you had somebody then who had that tenacity to keep on doing and practicing and then the the kind of the mental common sense to put things together. Cause then also question, like I have scripts in my program like asking questions and if you approach it also like with the curiosity instead of pitching, because when you go into a call that you're like knowing you're thinking you're going to pitch it doesn't, it typically doesn't work. You want to go in, you know that's like you want to go in just understanding what their problem is and then you can decide how you can solve their problem and they have to see you as a solution, right, solving their problem.

Pete Newsome:

Yeah, that's. That's the thing that I think salespeople need to. If you're going to be a salesperson, you have to learn is that success comes from asking questions and not from not from talking and sharing your opinions on things. Yeah, I was thinking back now to to this reps experience and and she was in sales for three or four months before she went out on maternity leave for the first time and I don't think she'd closed anything in that timeframe and so the whole time she was gone, I was thinking about the conversation I needed to have when she came back and I said, hey, would you like to go back in recruiting for a little while, learn more? And she's like, absolutely not, I'm going to figure this out.

Diane Prince:

You know that tenacity and grit was in place but you can't teach that Most people give up way too early in sales. Yeah, and what you said because that goes back to the question that you asked how long do you give somebody? And then, like what you just said about what had that person's attitude that says, that says it all. Because if it's, if it's 90 days in and they haven't closed or brought calls, you know you also want to like, have have little successes, ways that they know like it could be if you bring in, you know, 10 contracts or whatever, like little things or get calls, like little things, that they can have success along the way. That will help motivate them so that they know that they can, they feel some success. But also, you know, 90 days, in, 45 days, in, whatever.

Diane Prince:

Hey, you know you're you're discussing this. They haven't had much action. You can tell if they're like well, it's the market, no, but if they're like, is it me? You know, is it them, are they going to take it? Well, maybe I could try this, maybe it's because I did this, then I'd give them more of a chance.

Pete Newsome:

But if they're blaming other external, circumstances or whatever, they don't have a growth mindset? No, not at all. All right, diane. One more question and I'm going to let you go who should contact you? What kind of firm, what kind of help if it's needed? Should someone reach out to you to solve for them, and who's your profile prospect?

Diane Prince:

Yeah, agency owners who are going through hurdles. I work with a lot of solo founders. I also work with some teams and I am a sounding board. I provide a neutral third party so it can be more mature agencies that are that need, they want an executive coach, they want they, they realize they, they, they understand there's probably value in talking about things and getting other ideas and opinions, helping to see their blind spots. And then also I work with brand new agency owners who are just starting out and help them, help them. So there's, I guess there's three things. So sometimes it's people from talent, it's other people who are starting out recruiting agencies. And then also some of the people in my program have been, have had permanent placement businesses for years, even since the eighties, and now they're looking at adding staff, temporary staffing. So that's another, that's another group that I serve.

Pete Newsome:

Wonderful. Well, I we've spent enough time together over the past hour to know that whoever you work with is going to benefit. I feel very confident from that. It's just you know, when you've been in this business as long as I have, you just know when someone gets it and has the depth of knowledge, and you clearly have that to a very, very significant degree. So I really appreciate your time today. This has been an absolute pleasure.

Diane Prince:

Yeah, it's awesome, ty. We've been enjoying. I've been enjoying talking to you on.

Pete Newsome:

LinkedIn and commenting and stuff, so it's great to sit down and spend this time with you Awesome. Well, diane Prince, thank you so much for today and look forward to talking soon. Bye, pete.