Have you ever wondered why you've never heard back after that promising job interview? Or maybe you're a recruiter wondering how to navigate the tricky terrain of giving feedback post-interview.
This episode of the Hire Calling Podcast will illuminate these queries and much more. Staffing expert Pete Newsome and HR guru Ricky Baez discuss the challenges recruiters face when dealing with hiring managers, emphasizing the importance of keeping candidates informed throughout the recruitment process.
Have you fallen into the trap of mass-applying for jobs instead of targeting the ones you're best qualified for? This episode breaks down these phenomena and reveals why they work against you and how to remedy them.
As Pete and Ricky wrap up their conversation, they share insights on providing feedback to successful and unsuccessful candidates and the urgency recruiters should have when offering job opportunities.
Tune in and transform your recruitment experience!
Have you ever wondered why you've never heard back after that promising job interview? Or maybe you're a recruiter wondering how to navigate the tricky terrain of giving feedback post-interview.
This episode of the Hire Calling Podcast will illuminate these queries and much more. Staffing expert Pete Newsome and HR guru Ricky Baez discuss the challenges recruiters face when dealing with hiring managers, emphasizing the importance of keeping candidates informed throughout the recruitment process.
Have you fallen into the trap of mass-applying for jobs instead of targeting the ones you're best qualified for? This episode breaks down these phenomena and reveals why they work against you and how to remedy them.
As Pete and Ricky wrap up their conversation, they share insights on providing feedback to successful and unsuccessful candidates and the urgency recruiters should have when offering job opportunities.
Tune in and transform your recruitment experience!
You're listening to The Hire Calling Podcast, your source for all things hiring, staffing and recruiting. I'm Pete Newsome, joined today once again by Ricky Baez. Ricky, how are you today?
Ricky Baez:I am doing great. Pete, How's this week treating you?
Pete Newsome:So far, so good, but it's Thursday.
Ricky Baez:Anything could happen, not over yet, not over yet. I'm with you on that.
Pete Newsome:Anything could still happen. Ricky, you're back in town after a trip to Maryland. Welcome, welcome home to Orlando.
Ricky Baez:Thank you.
Pete Newsome:We're talking today about something that is important to a lot of people right now, because there's a lot of job seekers and we see them on LinkedIn and they get very frustrated at times about lack of feedback, and so we thought it would be a good opportunity to talk about best practices for giving feedback after an interview. Sometimes it's good. We all love doing that. A lot of times it isn't Not so much fun, right. No one enjoys that, but it's a necessary and important part of the process.
Ricky Baez:That's right, I agree, and it's not just giving back that feedback to the candidate, but kind of letting the candidate know what to expect in the entire process, from beginning to end. Because in your opinion, pete, what is the biggest? I don't want to see a concern complaint of recruiters.
Pete Newsome:Well, recruiters complain about. Recruiters complain about lots of things, but it depends on the recruiter. A lot of times recruiters wait on the hiring managers to make decisions. Recruiters complain about that. So length of process is what I think probably frustrates the recruiters the most. Just from a very high level standpoint, both on the candidate side and internal process is, whatever they may be, hiring managers not making decisions all of those things commonly frustrate recruiters. Is that where you're going, or in a different direction?
Ricky Baez:Well, I was going to one specific thing, and it's ghosting, being ghosted. Whenever a recruiter puts an entity, an organization puts together an interview process and they say, hey, be here at this time, especially in Zoom, and sometimes candidates just don't show up and that's the biggest concern that I keep hearing and the biggest way, the best way to combat that is inform the candidate, keep the candidate feedback, keep the candidate informed of the entire process.
Pete Newsome:Let's talk about ghosting just for a second. That phrase gets used a lot lately and it seems to have morphed into something different than I would define it by, and up until very recently, I would have told you the generally accepted definition of ghosting is disappearing on someone once you're already engaged with them. But now it seems that we're using that phrase just to indicate lack of response to an application for a job or unresponsiveness, and I don't think that's ghosting to me. I don't think you can ghost someone you were never engaged with in the first place. Well, to use to build on the phrase itself, something has to be alive in order for it to die and become a ghost. So if the relationship never existed, how can, how can you ghost someone, right? So that's it. To me, that's vastly different and I don't know if you agree with my perspective or what's kind of become the way it seems to be used a lot lately.
Ricky Baez:I just, I just got caught off guard with that line, with that, with the punchline you hit. Something has to be alive for it to die and become a ghost. That should be the name of this episode.
Pete Newsome:I don't. I don't know that that would get many clicks or searches. No, no, you're right, or at least not not with the intention of hearing two guys talking about interview processes and how to communicate post interview feedback 100% right.
Ricky Baez:But when. What I was referring to as ghosting is, you know, I think if you do a pre-screen, right, you've engaged, there's, there's a connection there, right. And then when you go to the next step and you say, hey, let's do this next interview, and they don't show up without any communication, to me that's ghosting Even worse. Let's make an offer right, here's an offer, and they don't accept, or they accept the offer, just don't show up. To new employer orientation. Those are the types of scenarios that I was talking about.
Pete Newsome:So candidates complained about it, recruiters complained about it. Everyone in any kind of relationship complains about that when it happens to them. It's not a good feeling. But can we establish, at least for our conversation, that ghosting is not failure to reply to a job application?
Ricky Baez:I agree there. I definitely agree with that.
Pete Newsome:And what's happened is I've been talking about this a lot lately, a little bit with you, but since I've been on LinkedIn so much over the past month, after not really paying intimately close attention to it for years, the number of applicants for any single job is created a mess for in the system. Because it's so easy to apply, people will apply to dozens, if not hundreds, of jobs without too much thought into whether there's a realistic chance of being selected for that job, and it's just kind of muddying up the system for everyone else. So the job that that individual would be qualified for is they're going to have a hard time being found from that pile of applicants because everyone else is doing the same Not everyone, of course, but so many people. So for any given job, there may be a very small percentage of qualified candidates who are actually a good fit for it, and it makes the recruiter's job difficult, if not impossible.
Pete Newsome:You can't go through a thousand resumes. You can't even effectively go through a few hundred resumes. It's just you don't have time for that as a recruiter. So it's a bad system right now. So for any candidates listening, don't take that personally, don't consider that to be ghosting. I would tell you it's not. Instead of just blindly applying to lots of jobs, go after the ones that you're most qualified for 100% and maybe not just. Let's all just stop applying to jobs that we don't even in our own minds think we're a good fit for.
Ricky Baez:Agreed. A thousand percent, pete. I think that's called a shotgun approach. You apply to all these different jobs or you cast a white net and see what kind of fish you catch. Yeah, it's, I'm with you there.
Pete Newsome:Now, that's a phrase I use a lot. I don't want to get too off topic, but cast a wide net to be found right. So make sure your resume is everywhere it needs to be. It's on all the job boards. Your your profiles go your resumes clean. You're in touch with recruiters. You sign up for email alerts. Do all of those things to be found right. Tell everyone in your network that you're looking for a job. Ask for help. But that's different than the shotgun approach to to just blindly applying. We know that we do?
Ricky Baez:I'm just, I'm just throwing out all kinds of terms that are just completely wrong.
Pete Newsome:Yeah, that's okay. Well, let's get. Let's get back on the, on the topic of really what we want to talk about, which is interview feedback and the importance of it. So here's, here's what it does. It brings closure to a process. It's very important for whoever's involved in it. I mean, not to me, is why feedback is necessary. What kind of feedback? The depth of feedback, that's a different story, but I think we have to start at just the very first step, which is bring closure to the situation. Do you, do you agree with that?
Ricky Baez:I agree. I agree. You know, especially when a candidate has invested so much time in this process and and they've been with you as a candidate, you being the recruiter, they've been with you every step of the way and they it's it's only right that you let the obviously the person know who got the job and then what kind of feedback that you give to the people who did not get the job. That would they have. That kind of closure Definitely read with that.
Pete Newsome:Now let's talk about the medium through which that feedback can be given, and we have options. Today we could text someone, we can email, we could call. My take on that is the farther along with the process, the more interaction you interaction you have had, the more intimate that feedback should be. For example, if there has been a brief email exchange and you haven't spoken live to a candidate, feel free to let them know via email that it's not a good fit.
Pete Newsome:Now, that's not how I would recommend recruiting in the first place, but we know it happens. If you've met someone live, if they've come to your office, if you've met them out for an interview somewhere, then you should do it via phone, you should do it verbally, get on a zoom call, even if you've taken someone far down the path and built rapport with them and establish a relationship. We've talked a lot in the past about the importance of maintaining those relationships and ending on a good note, because there may be an opportunity to work together in the future, maybe the immediate future. The closer you are with someone, I think, the more personal your feedback should be.
Ricky Baez:I agree, and this is something that I do talk to my clients about, because you know, we do have some recruiters out there that and this is odd, right, they're an introvert, they don't like to have too much in person conversations, and to me I'm like then that's, that's your recruiter. You need to have that salesman type of of of conversation skills. But you're right, the closer you are to the end, the more intimate you've had conversations with this candidate, the more intimate that feedback should be. So, for example, if you spend like three weeks, you know, working with a candidate and they're not going to get that job it's, I would not send a feedback via email or via text. I will. I will want to pick up the phone or meet them in person, depending on the situation, or zoom, but it's personalization is always best in these situations.
Pete Newsome:It's not fun. No one no one enjoys the bad feedback when we have to do it. But it is important to the, to the receiver of that feedback, because otherwise they're going, they're waiting. I mean, there's a lot that tied to a job search, but let's start with the good right, because there's a lot of times we have the benefit of giving positive answers and good news to a candidate to let them know that they received the job. So I'll tell you the time to do that as soon as possible. Right when you get that good news, you're eager to share it right away.
Ricky Baez:No, you're right, it's you want to do it as quickly as possible. You don't want because, remember, these days, these days, candidates have options, they have options and if you take your time to make sure you've got the perfect candidate, the longer you take, the bigger gap you leave for somebody, another fisherman, to come in and steal that big fish of yours. So, yes, you need to be able to, to, to communicate that as quickly as possible.
Pete Newsome:Man, we, you're all about the fishing today. You have nets, you have. You have big fish, small fish, we got it all covered.
Ricky Baez:Give me time. I have a lot more euphemisms, so just get ready.
Pete Newsome:But you're right. So we want to to not let that can it sit on the sidelines any longer than possible. But we also want to be prepared with the right information. I think recruiters aren't don't have the same depth of thinking at times that you would, as an HR professional, worrying about all of the teasing seas right when we start that onboarding process. So, with that good news, in almost every case the candidate is going to have questions.
Pete Newsome:Now, sometimes you've covered all of those questions up front I'd say rarely and then once the situation becomes real to a different degree, where now, candidate, it's no longer if, right, you've been given the offer you need to commit or not. That's when the surprise questions can come out. Now, if we were talking to do a different show, I would talk about the need to cover all of things, all those potential pitfalls, early in the recruiting process. But even if you have right, if you've asked 100 questions, there's going to be 101 that a candidate will ask. And so how do you recommend preparing for all of that when, when the offer is made and delivering it in the right way?
Ricky Baez:Well, I mean, it's a recruiter who who does this for a long time. They tend to hear the same questions over and over and over again. So the best thing to do, in my opinion, is, if you know these questions are going to come up, beat the candidate to the punch, beat them to the punch right. Go ahead and just have a set of frequently asked questions that the candidate might know. And who knows, maybe there are some questions that the candidate didn't know they needed to ask. That you have the answer for right. So maybe put together a frequently asked questions. Include that into your onboarding process. And remember to me onboarding starts as soon as the candidate applies right. That's when the organization needs to start telling the story about the organization, why the organization exists, why this position is really important to sell that piece to the candidate. So include that in that process as early as possible to minimize questions later on. The more informed the candidate is, the more likely they're going to see it through the end.
Pete Newsome:Yeah, and those it all presents a better starting point. Well, not starting point, because you've already that's already been initiated through the early interview stages, but it certainly is going to give the candidate confidence. You know, a lot of times we see in the staffing world we see things break down if the client is too loose in how they're willing to interview and make a hiring decision. That freaks candidates out sometimes and we love it. Being the third party in the middle. We want things to fly through as quickly as possible, but it happens I don't know if you've ever experienced that where a brief interview happens over the phone, a hiring decision is made and a candidate's like whoa, that seems too easy. I have alarm bells going off. So, to that point, you want to make the candidate feel welcomed and well thought of and know that you are, you know, taking this seriously and you are prepared for you know, to make sure that all their questions are answered. Don't be dismissive of those as a recruiter.
Ricky Baez:See, I think that's the key Don't be dismissive of the candidate's time. So I think the hard part not the hard part, the important part here that people need to understand organizations and recruiters you got to find that perfect timeframe. You got to find because you're right, I know of a situation really close to me that happened a couple of weeks ago. This person got a pre screen, a 15 minute pre screen for a high level R and position at a hospital. Okay. And in that 15 minute pre screen I'm thinking, okay, that's it, there's, there's, there's, there's two more interviews coming.
Ricky Baez:No, the next communication was an offer letter and that kind of took me back. I'm like, wow, an organization, a position, when you have people's lives literally in this person's hands, that was decided in 15 minutes in a 15 minute conversation. So to me, to me, that is something that I'm like, ah, I don't know about that, but then if you take too long with it because you and I have talked about this in the past if you take six interviews, then the candidate chances are they're going to go ahead and jump ship to go somewhere else. So you got to find that happy medium on how long that's going to take to have actually have a well thought out process.
Pete Newsome:We do and we know every situation is unique, just like every candidate unique. So the most important thing I think you mentioned it earlier is to prepare the candidate for that process from start to finish and ideally take questions along the way. So by the time you get to the actual offer, then all those questions are answered. So a lot of times there could be feedback from an interview in between stages and prior to an offer being ready, and that's where I tend to say that you should share less. We can staff. Everyone in staffing for a long time knows what I'm about to say.
Pete Newsome:Candidates come out of an interview and they tell you I think it went great. Why do you think it went great? Well, they showed me around, they introduced me to people. They asked me when I can start. Even that means nothing. In fact. Often when we hear those things we cringe because we go oh boy, this is not usually that easy. Now, we love it when it is, but it is an always case. So I tend to be on the side of giving as little feedback as possible unless it's constructive and will help the candidate have potential to be more successful in the process. But otherwise I don't really want to try to give anyone false hope in the process until there's an actual reason to.
Ricky Baez:That brings us up a good point, because, from a recruiter's perspective, you should make the candidate feel comfortable, but don't make him feel that they're the one prematurely. That's like if a guy or a girl just says hi to somebody and they're like, oh my God, they want to marry me. No, they just said hi, it's. Don't overreact. So, from a recruiter's perspective, show them around. Yes, let you know, introduce it to everybody, but don't do it in a way that they think that they got the job. Just you know. You have to do it in a way where this is how we do things. This is our culture we show everybody around, we introduce everybody because we take each and every interview seriously. That's how important this is to us. If you show it from that perspective, you're going to be okay, and this has happened a lot.
Pete Newsome:I've seen a lot of stories about this lately Offers being rescinded. So if you tell someone an offer is coming, make sure that you can back that up, because people live on, hang on these words that they hear and so, as they should, right, it's your career, your employment, very big deal. So don't say if you're the one in control, you have the power. Don't give anyone bad information or misleading information through this. And that goes to the next thing we'll talk about, which is sharing bad news.
Pete Newsome:I think it was Mark Twain, I'm going to get this wrong, but that said, if you have to eat a frog, eat it early in the day, I think as soon as possible. The point being get the bad news out of the way. Bad news early is good, we know that. So don't sit on it. No one wants to share it. It's wild, ricky. We tend to procrastinate and sharing bad news where you're going to share good, but we sit on bad, and that just doesn't help anyone. It surely doesn't help the candidate who is waiting in limbo, but we tend to do that too much.
Ricky Baez:We do. And look, my rule of thumb is I reach out to give feedback to the other finalists as soon as I get assigned acceptance offer from my first choice. As soon as I get that, once I have commitment from that candidate, that's when I start making phone calls. But I don't wait for a week, I don't wait for two weeks and I hate to send. I don't know about you, pete. I hate to send that dreaded email. Thank you for replying. Although we've got a lot of great candidates, you were not selected. We'll hold your resume for six months. I hate that email. I know that a lot of HRAS system or ATS systems have that already built in, but I'd rather just give them a phone call, to be honest.
Pete Newsome:But that's where I go back to what we talked about earlier. Right now, when there's so many applications being sent for any opening, you can't call. A thousand candidates, you can't call 500 candidates?
Ricky Baez:Absolutely, yeah, I'm talking about finalists. If I got three people and this is the last interview and I got three people and I'm picking only one I'm going to make three phone calls One great one and then two that are just giving feedback.
Pete Newsome:Sure, now let me ask you. You said this so if you have candidates, if you have three in this fictitious scenario, you have your first choice. Maybe you've ranked them. I would tell the one who you're not going to hire for sure. It'd tell them as soon as possible, but you're waiting on an acceptance Because that could take. That could add days to the process.
Ricky Baez:Well, it depends, because if I put a 48-hour limit on the acceptance offers and I got 48 hours for that person, I don't think 48 hours is an unreasonable time after the interview or after a decision is made. Because here's the thing, I don't. I rather, if you okay, so let's say I call. Are you suggesting that I call the people who didn't get the job first? I want to make sure I completely understand.
Pete Newsome:Well, two things they're different. One if you've ruled them out, I say call them right away. If you're willing to hire them as a second choice, or even third choice, then I understand why you'd want to wait. So those are different things.
Ricky Baez:So to me it's as soon as the person accepts. Then I call the people who did good, but this person just did better. And the reason I want to wait is because if the person who I really want says no or says I'm sorry, I have another job, I still got my number two there that I can call. But definitely the people who absolutely I'm not going to, who did not do well in the interview, I can call them earlier, much later, because no matter what happens with my top two, I'm not going to contact that person because they just didn't meet the criteria. More reason to give them a call.
Ricky Baez:And I always ask hey, we selected somebody else, but I have some feedback for you. Are you willing to hear that feedback? Because if they say yes, I give them. If they say no, conversation over. There's no point in me giving feedback to somebody who's not willing to receive it. I'm not mad or anything, but I don't want to waste your time, right? But there's some people who really do take that feedback really well. And let me tell you, pete, there is nothing. I think we said this before if you got five candidates and no, five of them are really darn good, but only one can get that job. Yes, you make that call to give that person that job. But you have to treat those other four still with that red carpet, still with that big love, because you want them to go home and tell everybody about the that awesome experience they had. They didn't have the job, but dang it. They're going to come back and apply later on because that experience was well worth it.
Pete Newsome:I'll give you a very real, a real world, timely example of exactly that. We are in the process right now of being independently rated by clearly rated, which is a system that exists to rate staffing companies based on the feedback of the candidates and clients they've worked with in the previous year. And candidates have an opportunity and, as new clients, have an opportunity to share feedback and give testimonials. They have the opportunity to share bad messages if they want to, or critiques, but one of the messages that we received yesterday the survey just went out for us yesterday and we see the feedback as it comes in was a candidate that said one of our recruiters. They were working together.
Pete Newsome:They it wasn't a good fit at that time because this candidate was pregnant, but the recruiter left the situation on a good note, agreed to stay in touch. When the person was able to be back on the market again, ready to work, they reconnected and we helped her get a job. And that was such a cool story, because not everything is going to end the way we hoped it would coming in, but if we do the right things, then that relationship can continue and come back around, and there's so many examples of that. This just happened, less than 24 hours ago.
Pete Newsome:So, yeah, how about that? And you didn't know that story, of course. But I want to challenge you on something real quick. So this is now you. Your HR is showing in this and my staffing side comes out. You went from we had three candidates and then a minute later you had five. Right, that's such an HR guy when I'm thinking why don't we just interview one, let me, let me just present the one you're going to hire. But that's different.
Pete Newsome:You said that 48 hours is an acceptable time to wait on and offer acceptance. Right, I would tell you that if I've done the right things in the recruiting process, that 48 hours should be unnecessary. That's what I mean. I want to so bad news. Early is good.
Pete Newsome:I take that approach with recruiting. I want to talk about all the potential reasons a candidate may not accept. I want to talk someone out of a job. Right, let's get all the bad upfront as early as possible.
Pete Newsome:Is it commute too long? Are you not willing to leave the situation that you're in? Who else is involved in the decision? Right, that's something that I always talk about. It's kind of a running joke for years in our office where candidates will say I need to talk to my spouse, my significant other and I always want to say you've been in this process for a week. You've had a phone screen, two phone screens, an in-person interview, whatever. You didn't mention this along the way at dinner Never no text. You put on a suit this morning and left to go, and it never came up as to why you were doing that, when you otherwise would be home all day. To me, what that means is I have not done my job as a recruiter thoroughly enough up until that point, because by the time that final interview happens, I should know that the person is going to accept. What do you think about that?
Ricky Baez:I got a counterpoint to that. I got a counterpoint to that. If I have done my job as a recruiter to get the very best candidate possible and this person is boom, this is who we're looking for. We're excited about it, we're already playing in the onboarding process, if this is the best person, then maybe other positions, other companies are thinking the same thing. So maybe this person has options. So maybe this person has to go home and talk to the significant other and I got three options. Who do I take? Because I don't think to me for me to go into this process thinking that I'm the only option. I think that's a recipe for failure.
Pete Newsome:Well, I agree with you and I think well, but I think you should assume you're not. I'll go even farther with that, and so I'm going to have those discussions too, up front. If you're my candidate, I want to know, Ricky, where else are you interviewing right now? What else are you considering? Let's talk through that. What are the pros and cons? What is this job offer as the middleman with this?
Pete Newsome:If you're a great candidate and we're taking you through the process, I'm not going to cut you off because you have other opportunities. I'm going to use that as motivation for the hiring manager to say you're on the clock, you need to move quickly. Ricky is looking at these other things. I guess the point that I want to make is if I've done my job, I'm not going to be surprised by anything that happens in that phone call.
Pete Newsome:If I'm expecting you to accept and you say I need a day, I need a weekend, I don't think I've done my job If I say, ricky, we're ready to make the offer. I know you have this other opportunity and you had told me all that and we know where you are with it. We should have already even agreed on the time frame. So anyway, this is a little off topic, but I believe that it's important. So much of these candidate declines or backouts happen because the recruiter is only hearing and seeing what they want to see in here versus looking for reasons the deal may fall apart. So that's off topic though.
Pete Newsome:We'll talk about that later.
Ricky Baez:No, but wait, I'm sorry, I guess I have to ask this. So are you saying that if at the end of the interview process and you're ready to extend an offer, you do expect that acceptance immediately?
Pete Newsome:Yes, in fact, one of the things that I've always done and asked my team to do is to ask before that final interview, when the offer comes, can I accept on your behalf? Because if you say yes to that question, then I know it's smooth sailing. If you say no, then that's a time for me to stop and find out why. What did I miss? What did we not cover? Maybe we shouldn't go forward in this step. That's when I uncover. Because, again, if I'm just trying to push you through, is it recruiters Good recruiters know that it's not about getting the interview, it's not about getting the offer, it's not even about getting an acceptance.
Pete Newsome:It's about having the candidate start, stay and be happy and productive in doing so. So it's not about how you begin, it's how this situation ends and you need to look forward all the way through, and that's hard. It's hard to do as a recruiter. When you're on the clock, you're trying to find a candidate, you're trying to find someone to submit, someone who will get an interview, someone who will get an offer. That's all great, but what you need is someone who will stay and be happy while they're there.
Ricky Baez:Agreed. Yeah, I still hold firm that I want to give them some time, Because I am on the camp that the person who's the least pushing not push you. But I don't want to put pressure. And if you don't put pressure on that person, he's just laid back and say hey, here you go. Let me know what you think, Let me know, Take some time talking over with the family. I think the right candidate would gravitate towards you.
Pete Newsome:But again, opportunity to have all those discussions prior earlier in the process. That's all. So I think those are good. Go talk. I would ask you that and that's part of our process. Hey, ricky, who else is involved in this decision? If you go, what do you mean? It's my decision, my career. And if later you say, hey, I need to go talk to my spouse, so look, I'm planting seeds along the way or I'm dropping. What did Hansel and Gretel? What did they drop? They dropped something.
Ricky Baez:I'm dropping breadcrumbs there that's what I'm looking for. Breadcrumbs no, that's ET.
Pete Newsome:Right, because, as these steps go on, in the first conversation I have with you man, this is so off topic in the first conversation I have with you as a candidate, if I want to see whether there's a potential fit based on everything you share with me, and if you say, well, I'm only looking at jobs where I can work remotely and mine's hybrid or in the office, well, I don't want to continue the conversation, so I want all these bad things up. Who else is involved in the decision? Ricky, would there be a reason you wouldn't move 500 miles for this job? You need to get those things on the table. If someone's been employed for 10 years and you're calling them about a contract job that's going to last six months, you should probably dig deeply into whether they'll actually leave. So if you're a recruiter and you're serious about your craft, you should dig into those things early, not at the end of the process. That's all.
Ricky Baez:Agreed, agreed. I know we kind of went off topic, but there's still an important topic to talk about. Maybe even morph into his own show, probably.
Pete Newsome:So let's get back and wrap this up because this feedback is important. I am on the fence at times with sharing too much negative feedback to an interview. It's not going to be constructive. I use that word earlier by design, because bad feedback for the sake of bad. If you are low energy and I need an enthusiastic candidate, I may not share that right. I may say they were looking for someone who was very enthusiastic, but if I know there's no potential for you to be that thing I don't know that I'm going to tell you you should have done something that wasn't in your. You weren't capable of doing.
Ricky Baez:But isn't that good feedback though? So I think letting somebody know that hey, I'm trying to word this right because I've got to be careful here, pete, because the recruiter has to be able to navigate this conversation properly, and they have to be able to know what kind of pushback the candidate might give right. So it's important at the beginning of that conversation that the recruiter lets a candidate know hey, a decision has already been made. Let's have a conversation about what feedback we have for you, because I don't want the candidate to start thinking and get defensive and start trying to say, well, I did this or I could have done that A decision has been made right. But if a candidate is putting out a persona that we see is not working, don't you think we should let that person know like, hey, this is not working for you, or at least it didn't come across to us?
Pete Newsome:Yeah, every situation is different. I think if you can offer constructive feedback, that would be well received, then absolutely do it. I think for a recruiter it's difficult at times to be the one in the middle who may not have all the feedback to offer. So I really think the hiring manager whoever I'll just say the interviewer, the interviewer who's giving the feedback needs to either be the one to give it or make sure that it's explicitly spelled out for the person who is going to give it, because what recruiter shouldn't do is try to translate that Well. I think this is why right, that's not don't do that.
Pete Newsome:A lot of times, recruiters don't know and that's also something that we should do better with where, if you are working with a third party recruiter as a hiring manager, give them that feedback so they can share it with the candidate to leave a good impression. There's a breakdown there, and so one of the conveniences of working with a third party staffing company is you don't have to deal with the ugliness, you don't have to terminate people, you don't have to let them down after an interview, and that's kind of what you're paying for, in a way. But let the third party recruiters do their job effectively, and part of that is representing you well to the candidates who didn't get hired, not just the candidates who did, and so give them the feedback that is constructive. That will be something they can pass along. So that's really the perspective I was coming from earlier, which is don't share stuff that's not going to be helpful. Don't share things that aren't 100% accurate either.
Ricky Baez:Got it? No, it makes perfect sense. So two things there Either the person who interviewed who has the feedback should be able to give that feedback, or make sure that person gets the recruiter specific details on that feedback to communicate over to the candidate intelligently. Is that what I'm looking at? No, confidently, right.
Pete Newsome:There you go.
Ricky Baez:It's like ah, I don't know, maybe it's this, maybe it's that You're not going to leave a good taste in that person's mouth. It's just not going to work.
Pete Newsome:So, speaking of leaving a good taste now you've said this and we see it a lot that you get an email or a message that will keep your information on file. Now, most of the time if you're selling or prospecting someone you were just mentioning before we got on that you're getting lots of LinkedIn messages lately of people trying to sell you stuff, right, we all know that happens a lot and you haven't established any rapport. It's just a blind sales effort and you say I'll keep your informational file. We know that file is the deleted email box, but in the case of applicant tracking systems and recruiting, it really does happen. So candidates need to know that and recruiters who say it need to mean it where they'll say we will, if you're going to consider that person future opportunities, actually do it. But it happens a lot. I mean, we just told a quick story about it, but that's how applicant tracking systems work. So you're in our recruiting process.
Pete Newsome:The first thing we do is seek to place known candidates, candidates who we've worked with previously. We've already checked references on. Maybe we've placed in the past on a contract somewhere. That's best case scenario. So once you and I have established rapport, I mean it when I say reach out to you the next time there's a good fit. And so the reason why I want to make that point as much as anything is so candidates also can know that it's worth having a conversation with a recruiter when you're a job seeker, because recruiter's days change with every phone call, with every email. You never know. It's because I don't have anything for you today, it doesn't mean I won't have something for you five minutes from now. So while third-party recruiters don't create demand, their demand changes minute by minute, hour by hour. So when they say they'll keep your information on file, in this particular case they actually do. At least the good ones do.
Ricky Baez:Well. So that's the thing there, pete, because I can understand from a staffing legacy perspective why that isn't an amazing idea, why that's crucial to do that way. You have a wealth of talent there for any client, right? But in corporate America, every organization that I've worked for that I've managed a team that I've had a team of recruiters and HR people reporting up to me. I always challenge them. I'm like let me see what email you send out. Okay, so you do keep their stuff on file for the past six months Excellent. How many times have you gone back whenever there's a new requisition? How many times have you gone back? Do you flag those resumes for later on, crickets? And that's when I change it, if we're going to send that out and if we're going to tell people you did great. Just somebody did better. Keep applying right. Keep an eye open for other opportunities, and I'm going to have this with me because I can see you doing great things in this organization when the right position comes along.
Pete Newsome:And it's-.
Ricky Baez:When the right position comes along, I'm going to hit you up.
Pete Newsome:And it's not said just to make the candidate feel better in the moment, and far from it. It's because that is the ideal way to recruit. Go to candidates you already have. Don't go post a job from scratch on some job board somewhere. Go to the candidates that you already have in your own system. You already have notes and contact information for familiarity. All of the above Reach out to the candidates first who you've already worked with.
Ricky Baez:Okay, well, it's a great idea.
Pete Newsome:So emotions come into play. We have to understand that when we're giving news, the farther the more invested someone is in an opportunity, the more emotions will be tied to it. So just know that, and I think every recruiter does. And yet to ever meet anyone in recruiting who enjoys making a bad news call, I mean, you'd have to be pretty demented individual to do that. I don't see it. So we are empathetic by nature as people, but just to understand that if someone's upset and they say something you know in the moment, you'll probably give them a little bit of a break on that right. But we should always be compassionate in that part of the process.
Ricky Baez:Absolutely, and that's what I'm saying. The recruiter has to have the personality. They have to have the people skills to communicate information that the candidate doesn't want to hear in a way that's as positive as possible. If I can give a real quick story, pete, because I did that one time, I was interviewing for a team manager many moons ago and there was this one person who we selected. This person was perfect. The second runner up was that he was all right, right, but not as good as that first person.
Ricky Baez:So I decided to call this person and give him some, some feedback. He was so upset, started yelling at me call me a blanking idiot because I made the wrong choice. And he started you just just, completely, just calling me all these names. And I paused and that's just mild because I'm like what am I supposed to do now? Am I supposed to tell him? You know what? You're right, I am an idiot, you are 100% right, let me bring you on board. So you've got to be careful and you have to get ready because you may have that kind of response. Now there's a civil lining there, because for this person I'm like man, I wonder if I am making that right choice. And that person just solidified my position. When that person cuts me out, I'm like you know what thank you for alleviating myself from sleepless nights thinking that I made the wrong choice. You appreciate that.
Pete Newsome:Well, look it's. It's an emotional time. It happens. I'd like to tell everyone that we should all handle these things with grace, but it's easier said than done. If someone's been on the market for a long time and really needs you know, just don't work it again.
Ricky Baez:So, from a recruits perspective, just because you get one person who reacts to you that way, it doesn't mean you have to alter how you communicate to the other person, how you communicate to the other 90%, who will take that feedback to heart. Correct Will follow up with your advice. Do not let those situations change how you communicate to everybody.
Pete Newsome:And you can't be in recruiting for any period of time without understanding that, because even if, for any single job opening, there's only going to be one, you know one happy outcome right from that, everything else is going to be a failure. It's like the NCAA basketball tournament, right? Every I think about this every year in the major conferences, every team but one loses, ends their season on a loss. Yeah, every single, every single team in college basketball who's in a conference eligible for the tournament ends on a loss, except for one. Those are really bad odds for everyone else to end on a high note, isn't it?
Ricky Baez:It's a great example right.
Pete Newsome:It's right. I think about it every year and I'm not even I'm not even the most empathetic person by nature, but when I think of that I it does resonate, because we get a lot of nose to just get those handful of yeses that we really have to appreciate. And so that's why, ricky, when that offer comes and I'll close with this today when there's nothing better than when a recruiter and anyone who's been a recruiting for any period of time knows this right I'll set the stage. You get the word. We're offering that your candidate the job go make the offer.
Pete Newsome:One of two feelings come out either fear, because I'm afraid they're not going to accept, or elation, because you know that they will. How well you've done your job, building rapport, communicating back and forth with the candidate. You know that. That tells you that feeling. It doesn't matter what you say externally.
Pete Newsome:We all know that feeling and I've watched it so many times play out with the recruiters where they're like oh, I have to make this job offer. I don't know how it's going to go. Or I'm rushing to the phone because we're about to have a party when I make this offer, and the best recruiters are the ones who know they're about to have a party or they're not surprised by whatever happens when they make that phone call. So that's really a way of wrapping a bow around what I was saying earlier, which is cross teasing dot eyes along the way. Right, keep checking. Don't assume things are good. Assume they're not. Don't assume the candidates and interviewing elsewhere, assume they are. Do all that. You won't be surprised at the end, and that's really the goal of the successful recruiting process.
Ricky Baez:Here we go, and, and, and. I think that does it. Pete that right there, doesn't? It wraps it up in a bow, and I will. I will leave everybody with just saying this as a recruiter, if you're communicating this information, did not forget the H, did not forget the H and H are it's. They've gone through a long process, especially for those folks who have been pounding that pavement trying to get that job. Let them down easy, right, given some kind of hope for later on, if they, if you know, if there's somebody who you would hire later on, and for those who, like this, just didn't hit that mark, and I think that's really the right tool, is the right tips. That way they can come back and interview much better next time.
Pete Newsome:Great way to treat others. As you want to be treated Can never go wrong, right? Oh, awesome, ricky. Thank you Everyone. Thanks for listening today. Email us we are due for a Q and A. Hire calling@4 corner resources. com. Email us, let us know your thoughts, ideas, we'll, we'll get to it on our next episode.
Ricky Baez:Spell calling I need to spell calling?
Pete Newsome:Well, 4 Corner Resources is a sound you can figure out. If you figure out how to spell that correctly, the rest excels itself All right, have a good one. Thank you.